Talk:Knocking on wood

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Perhaps this is more of a Wiktionairy entry? I dunno so I won't touch it...


_________________________


Hi

In Australia, we say "Touch wood" and simultaneously do so, where possible.

In America we say "Knock on Wood" then knock on our heads. Go Figure!!


I once heard on BBC Radio 4 that the phrase originated from a ring owned by Henry VIII, that was reputed to be set with a piece of wood from the cross of Christ's crucifixion. His followers would touch it for luck. In the light of this entry, this seems to be an apocryphal suggestion, but I thought I would contribute this in any case.

[edit] Parallel expressions

Hmmm, is there an article that discusses expressions like this in general? E.g. Latin absit omen, Yiddish keyn aynore, Italian toca ferro and so on. I was thinking of added a section to this article on that: to my mind it seems appropriate, but it also seems like the kind of thing that other wikipedians might not agree with me on. So what do you think: does that info belong in this article, and if not, where does it belong? --Iustinus 19:42, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Has anyone come across "Touch gold" being used to mean the same? I have not heard of "Touch gold" in USA where I live currently. However in Sri Lanka I have heard of the pharase Touch gold Ritigala Jayasena (talk) 01:32, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Somewhere i saw a reference to people touching metal when it became an important material. Feel free to put your information in the article maybe under "Other" - especially if you can find a reference for it or I'll take a look for that ref again. Julia Rossi (talk) 07:34, 15 February 2008 (UTC)
Here;s one used by the writer though, "Touch Gold and Touch Wood! He is enjoying this great fortune." in Sri Lanka's Sunday Observer here[1] if that suits let's put it in the article then.Julia Rossi (talk) 07:41, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Steve Roud may be right that the first documented use of touching wood was in a children's game; but it is rare that children invent social customs; rather they reflect them. Children's games play with the sound of words and behaviors of adults to learn words and reinforce behaviors and beliefs in children. "Mother-may-I" was not the source of the social norm of parental consent for actions of their children. Nor was "Red-rover" the source for setting up battle lines or testing each combatant's strength individually. "Ring-around-the-rosies" didn't create the notion that fragrant flowers could ward of the plague. "Tiggy-touch-wood" sounds like a reflection of the superstitions of the society in which the children played.

Thing is, he's basing his comments on the historical record. What are yours based on? Also, "ring around the rosies" does not, according to scholars, date from the plague years. --Dannyno 22:17, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
he's basing his theory on british folklore, his area of expertise, but the fact that this same expression occurs in many different languages seems to suggest an older origin than the 19th century. of course this is o.r. and no basis for altering the article, but it warrants further investigation, and more sources than just roud.--Mongreilf (talk) 15:39, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Hi, I've reworked the article to include the sources mentioned (and not) in the footnotes and references so there's only one citation needed now. I had the same impression of the Steve Roud para that seemed to dismiss these older claims and pan-national references by attributing the pov to him. Hope that's okay. Julia Rossi (talk) 07:46, 9 February 2008 (UTC)


____________________________________

Personally, I think the expression probably originated from a practical concern or rule of thumb that it is wise to test for the sturdiness of a structure before entering. This avoids the bad luck of having a structure with frail, hollow beams, falling on your head. However, I find no evidence of this speculation on the web (until now).

From Ask Yahoo, I found the following explanation that some might find interesting:

"Dear Yahoo!: What is the origin of the custom of knocking on wood for luck? Dale Minneapolis, Minnesota

Dear Dale: If you are a true fan of Ask Yahoo! (knock on wood), you'll be all too familiar with our answer -- we are not sure. A few possibilities are repeated fairly consistently in the search results for our query "knock on wood origin."

The explanation we prefer is the ancient belief that spirits either dwelled in or guarded trees. We prefer this because many cultures around the world show evidence of tree worship dating back thousands of years.

Greeks worshipped the oak as it was sacred to Zeus, Celts believed in tree spirits, and both believed touching sacred trees would bring good fortune. Irish lore holds that "touching wood" is a way to thank the leprechauns for a bit of luck. Pagans also held similar beliefs of protective tree spirits. Chinese and Koreans thought the spirits of mothers who died in childbirth remained in nearby trees.

Another explanation points to the wooden Christian cross as the origin of "good luck," although this is likely a Christian adaptation of earlier pagan practices.

A Jewish version traces the origin to the Spanish Inquisition of the 15th century. At the time, persecuted Jews fled to synagogues built of wood, and they devised a coded knock to gain admission. Since this practice spared countless lives, it became common to "knock on wood" for good luck.

___________________________________

[edit] References

These could be tidied up by someone who can make the link format work so that instead of repeats, you get abc etc and the like. I've been attempting but it just stands in the text looking u-ugleh – also unsure of how best to cite Roud's book. Be my guest, anyone. Julia Rossi (talk) 01:14, 13 February 2008 (UTC)