Talk:Kingdom of Greece

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[edit] Merger of Kingdom of Greece, First Kingdom of Greece

Someone put a merger proposal for these two articles. However she/he didn't start a discussion, so here it is.

I disagree with the merger. I believe that "Kingdom of Greece" should be a disambiguation page, referring to two articles, one for each of the kingdoms (Otto's and the Glucksbergs'). As a side note, I believe the same should be done with the History of the Hellenic Republic article -a disambiguation to seperate articles for all three republics.--Michalis Famelis (talk) 12:09, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I think that's a good idea and would support that proposal. Should we start adding "Move" requests to the relevant articles? --Kimon^talk 12:58, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

As far as I am aware, in terms of historical nomenclature, there is no "first" or "second" Kingdom of Greece, unlike the Republics. The current article considers the entire period 1933-1922 as a single entity, separate from 1935-1973, which is wrong. I would prefer, like Michalis, a separation between the Othonian and the Georgian-Glücksburg Kingdoms (1863-1924 and as restored in 1935-1967/73), as indeed they were very different entities in their nature. The "First Kingdom etc" article would provide a good starting point, which is why I too oppose the merger. But in order to separate into pre-1862 and post-1863 Kingdoms, we would have to "invent" the relevant terminology, for which I don't have any good proposals (perhaps "Kingdom of Greece (House of Wittelsbach)", "Kingdom of Greece (House of Glücksburg)"?). I think that for the first period, it could be sufficient to link to the article on King Otto, who either way dominated and defined it. BTW, concerning the Republics, there already exists an article on the First Hellenic Republic, which is in need of great expansion. Regards, Cplakidas 16:46, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Since there isn't a standardized nomenclature on the Kingdoms, then the best way to differentiate between the two would indeed be by royal house (Wittelsbach & Glücksburg). As for linking the first period to Otto, it may be enough to begin with but, I would think that an article the covers the period in its entirety should be considered. Some of the information in the Otto of Greece article can be brought into this article (e.g. Parties, finances and the church). --Kimon^talk 18:35, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I support merging these two articles as there is no need for the distinction between the periods of the Monarchy (1832-1922) and (1935-1974). Remember part of this article is about "former countries," so to the extent that the "Kingdom of Greece" no longer exists, we should capture the structure of that former government. Accordingly, before September 3rd and after is a more significant distinction, IMHO.

As far as distinguishing the two dynasties, (which many editors seem to want) I would prefer two seperate articles that deal with each family as Cplakidas proposes. (BTW, sorry for not starting the discussion--my bad) Argos'Dad 21:20, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the term "Kingdom of Greece" refers to a former country and therefore warrants an article. Maybe what would make more sense would be a more refined series of articles on the history of modern Greece. Something along the lines of "History of Greece (1830-1922)", "History of Greece (1922-1967)" etc. --Michalis Famelis (talk) 22:14, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I feel that who ever wrote the Kingdom of Greece article seriously messed up. I suggest that the article Kingdom of Greece be re-written as the kingdom that existed from 1935 – 1967. - RedNeckIQ55 4/17/07

[edit] Official establishment

First Republic is an unrecognized entity. It may have a spiritual value to Greeks but legally the international agreement which build this new establishment had the signature of Ottoman Empire. Ottoman Empire did accept this entity as a new state, not the one before this. Am I wrong? --OttomanReference 17:06, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Greece was granted de jure autonomy in the Treaty of Adrianople in 1829, which ended the War of Independence. Hence, for all intents and purposes, Greece was a separate state, recognized by the Great Powers. The fact that the Republic was for a long time not recognized does not mean anything, since a provisional Greek state existed de facto from 1822. It is this that the Kingdom was a successor to, not the Ottoman Empire, even more so since the change from "Republic" to "Kingdom" was effectively nothing more than a change of regime. In Greece, and in international sources, independence is dated from 1821, as is also the common practice with any "unrecognized" state that eventually either became recognized or was subdued again (prime example: the United States). If you change the predecessor state to the Ottoman Empire alone, you practically erase 11 years of Greek self-rule. However, since full independence was de jure acknowledged only in 1832, I am adding both states (Ott. Empire and First Republic) to the infobox as predecessors. I think that should be satisfactory to both. Regards, Cplakidas 18:01, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I know, sometimes I forgot that I'm living in the 21th century and in this period Turks and Greeks are enemies. However, Greeks and Ottomans during 400 years were not that much of an enemy. They had their own administration under protected millet (Ottoman Empire) system, developed their religion, even had their own flag. I wonder if a Greek flag in Turkey or Turkish flag in Greece can be seen in our period of time. If you wanna talk about erasing history between these two groups, we need to talk more than couple decades. Thanks for your edits though... I think both views are reflected. Have a nice day. --OttomanReference 01:46, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, there was the millet system, there were privileges for certain classes, and the Ottoman rule certainly wasn't as bad as it is usually painted to be (I've long outgrown the primary school's harrowing histories about the savage Turks). But one cannot help ask a question. If the situation was so rosy as ardent modern-day revisionists depict it, why did the Serbs, the Greeks and all the others rise up in the first place, and more than one time? The spread of nationalism is a significant factor, but certainly not the only one... The whole Greek-Turkish history is a looong, very painful and controversial story, and it can't be resolved in one article. Limiting ourselves to the present case, I meant that 11 years of independent, local self-rule, which was based on some of the world's most liberal constitutions (something very different from the Church-dominated millet system) deserve mention. Because these years established the modern Greek state that became recognized as "Kingdom of Greece". There are no two views in this regard, there are the de facto and de jure establishments of the Greek state, the former being 1821/22 and the latter 1832. I think the situation is clarified now. Regards, Cplakidas 07:58, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Glucksbergstamp.jpg

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BetacommandBot 02:02, 7 November 2007 (UTC)