Talk:Khalistan

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[edit] Serious overhaul and expansion needed

Hello,

Why is there no sections on the following: Culture Economy Demographics Education Flora and Fauna The proposed currency and many other sections?

Mik357 (talk) 20:49, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] A Sikh ie a religious based state??

Cannot be based on secular egalitarian or idealistic principles because of the very obvious nature of being a state based on a religious fundamentalist concept. So I have removed those term for obvious reasons.

Included - Yet it remains unclear if Muslims, Christians or Hindus would be allowed freedom of expression of faith in a 'Sikh' based state. Khalistan has limited support from Sikhs in North America, Australia and UK. Previous supporters included congressman Dan Burton.

[edit] Reply

The Sikh state that existed until 1849 when annexed by Britain allowed Hindus , Muslims and Christians full religious freedom and many held high office. There is no reason why this should not happen again.
It was not a Theocratic state then when under British rule and jurisdiction or after when the British left.
Theocracy i.e a religious state is based on religious controls and religious fundamental principles NOT secular values.
Sikhs showed considerable restraint when Sikhs were murdered in Delhi 1984 by the Congress Party is that the actions of Secular Country? No Hindus were attacked in the Punjab. That shows who is secular —Preceding unsigned comment added by Singhls (talk • contribs) 19:53, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
Non-Sikhs were killed indiscriminately before 1984 and after 1984 by various khalistani terrorist groups which are now banned by the United States and Europe, best example is www.flight182.com
Indian intelligence (RAW) in a book by MK Dar state that they created the conditions for conflict and carried out acts of terror on their own people —Preceding unsigned comment added by Singhls (talk • contribs) 07:45, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
It's M K Dhar, not "MK Dar", and the book is called Open Secrets. India's Intelligence Unveiled. The book doesn't state what you claim. It talks about the terrorist acts of Khalistani militants, and Indian Government's over-the-top response to it. Dhar talks about how the Sikh secessionists planned terrorist attacks, and how the Indian forces (which included some Sihks also) killed some innocent civilians while responding to these attacks.
The Khalistani sites completely whitewash all kinds of terrorist attacks committed by the Khalistani terrorist groups. The Indians at least accept that there were civilian causalties during counter-terrorism operations.
The problem with you Khalistanis living abroad is that you're completely out of touch with the situation in Punjab and the events of 1980s. You all have been brainwashed by the propaganda of highly biased Khalistani sites and books, which conviniently ignore all the atrocities committed by the Khalistanis on Punjabis, but keep ranting about the misdoings from the Indian nationalist side. Try to give up your prejudices and get some knowledge about the happenings of 1980s from non-biased sources. The events were unfortunate, but there is no use revising history, and trying to project the Khalistan movement as a great struggle without any terrorist activities. Several Khalistani groups committed highly deplorable terrorist acts, and your "No Hindus were attacked in the Punjab" argument is completely bullshit. In 1947, Ludhiana District was the only district in entire British India (incuding Pakistan), which had Sikhs in majority. Sikhs and Hindus lived peacefully, and loved and respected each otehr. But the Khalistani terrorists drove out all the Hindus from the Indian Punjab (which is now a Sikh majority state). Sikhs in India do not want a Pakistani-like nation ruled by religious extremists. They want to live peacefuly with Hindus and others. Nobody likes brainwashed religious fundamentalists and that's why there is no Khalistan yet 203.158.89.10 (talk) 08:45, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Everybody knows that Indira Gandhi and her son Sanjay started the trouble in the Punjab in revenge for the Akalis helping the opposition parties bring her down in the Emergency. The BJP have written about this at length and even the Indian Police officers say that guns were supplied by them. Only in South America or Cambodia has a country killed so many of its citizens more than India. Sikhs and non Sikhs will continue to raise the issues of intolerance in India against minorities no matter how worked up you get about it. (PS why do you always delete the Amnesty and HRW reports ) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Singhls (talk • contribs) 18:42, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] India: Time to Deliver Justice for Atrocities in Punjab

Investigate and Prosecute Perpetrators of ‘Disappearances’ and Killings

Human Rights Watch Report

(Delhi, October 18, 2007) – The Indian government must take concrete steps to hold accountable members of its security forces who killed, “disappeared,” and tortured thousands of Sikhs during its counterinsurgency campaign in the Punjab, Human Rights Watch and Ensaaf said in a new report released today.

Response:

If you were not around at the time please either stop fabricating things or listing articles based solely on propaganda, please present the facts.

Response;

So you call Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch 'fabricating evidence', even the Indian Media use them as a source of information. These organisations are respected worldwide, obviously the truth hurts.There will be justice for the Sikh killed.

[edit] BBC Coverage of Sikh Violence against Non Sikhs

Here you will see footage of the BBC report of Khalisthan Religious violence

[1]

You can't spell. Why have you missed out the Indians killing Sikhs in 1984?

Because the violence began with religious sikh fanatics killing innocent women and children who were non-sikh, and i stress again the word 'began'

What about your fanatics they stated killing minorities from 1947 and are still doing it Gujarat 2003 , aoydhya etc ,1978, 1984 attacks on Sikhs are examples, attacks on Sikhs started then even though they had saved thousands of hindus during partition and before. During non violent demonstations in the 60's even Sikh children were killed by a communal police force, so learn some history before coming out with rubbish. Again in the Pakistan wars and China it was the Sikhs the Indian Government begged for help when your own soldiers ran away.You lot would have starved to death if it was not for the wheat from the Punjab —Preceding unsigned comment added by Singhls (talk • contribs) 06:42, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Wheat?? Hell, who needs wheat, India can buy wheat from Pakistan or USA if it wants to. But Sikhs need the Indian Economy for jobs otherwise the Jatts will be committing suicide cos they cant make a living anymore, at least be thankful you get jobs in Government posts —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.192.59.130 (talk) 22:58, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't know if you realize what you just said. At least be thankful Sikhs get jobs? Most Sikhs in India are farmers, a job that doesn't require the government. And how will you buy agricultural products from Pakistan if they get their supplies from Punjab. As for government posts-Sikhs are 20% of the Indian army but only 1.9% of the population. Maybe you should be more thankful. and how can you say jatts will be committing suicide for lack of jobs, Punjab has the lowest poverty rate in India. By the way your post is littered with random capitalization and it seems you simply ignored wikipedia's spell check function for good measure. Why don't you learn English and stop being bitter about Sikhs? 76.112.20.78 (talk) 23:58, 25 April 2008 (UTC)Profitoftruth85

[edit] bad sources

The following names have been removed for the same as above (Other supporters include Dan Burton, Jesse Helms, Lord Avebury & Edolphus Towns)

[edit] A request for User:Sunnybondsinghjalwehra

Dear Lovepreet Singh,

I admire your enthusiam for Punjab and Sikhism.

I note you were born in 1994. You have not lived through the times being described, and have heard/read about them through mainly sources with a specific perspective.

I urge you to study the Gurbani directly, in Punjabi, if possible. Also I urge you to find and read newspapers, from Punjab and around the world, published during the time these events took place. I am confident that you will agree with me and some of the others.

Wikipedia articles should be unbiased and not based on personal views.

However let me say something to you personally. Sikhism is a religion of brotherhood and accomodation. When Guru Arjun Dev compiled the Adi Granth, he included works of many non-Sikhs (Sikh Bhagats). Punjab has always been mixed, and Punjabis have traditionally respected each other. Lovepreet, a lot of innocent blood has ben shed in Punjab. Brotherhood has returned to Punjab. Please let it flourish.

I request you not to remove well documented facts from the article.--ISKapoor (talk) 00:14, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Dear I.S. Kapoor,

I may have no been born then, but I have come to know about everything with the help of some sites like saintsoldiers.net, neverforget84.com etc. And I think you don't know that more than a million Sikhs were killed, raped by Fanatical Hindus etc. And NONE has been brought to justice till date. And those killings of innocent Hindus were done by Black Cats aka Alam Sena. These were criminals recruited by the government and police officers, as SPO's (special police officers).. There job was mainly to lessen the big amount of support for Khalistan. And they succied. What they did was looting innocents, killing Hindus in busses, extortion, rape, looting weddings, etc. One of the latest examples of how Sikhs are 2nd class is the killing of 38 Sikhs in Chattisinghpora. I will support Khalistan till I live. Sunnybondsinghjalwehra (talk) 15:57, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Dear Lovepreet Singh,
I hope you live a long time, and strive for truth, dharma and the Panth. The Panth of Guru Nanak and Gobind Singh; not that of Max Arthur Macauliffe and Maqbool Butt. May I ask this:
  • Why do you think government of India is/was against Sikhs? Is it a Hindu government? Are Hindus against Sikhs?
  • Why do you think Sikhs have been 2nd class citizens in India?
  • Why do you think Sikhs in Chittisinghpura massacre were killed by Hindus/government?
--ISKapoor (talk) 04:33, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I find it totally ironic that teenagers who spew out bullshit when they have no experience of living in the eighties and what was behind such terrorist acts like flight182 find it somewhat easy to describe events they have no knowledge of.

If they are desperate to have an independant religious state, then they should relinquish their US or UK Citizenship with immediate effect, but they wont because of double standards.

The reasons they (khalistani terrorists) cry foul repeatedly is because they want to live in some mad religious utopian theocratic lunatic state run by lunatics with no knowledge of business, economics, health, education or technology. Such lunatic religious states (as history has shown) end up with starved citiziens despearte to leave.

If Sikhism is not a religion of tolerance and understanding but one based on divisions and hate then its no longer a religion.

So the killing of Muslims in Gujrat 2003 and many other places,Sikhs in 1984, Christians, low caste Hindus, Left wingers, Naxalites was all done by secular saints?

A state based on religion and eventual anarchy as seen during the eighties led many Sikhs especially rural Jatts to shift away from the Khalistani mentality when their own daughters were humped while giving terrorists refuge.

These were normally Indian Police who went around trying to dicredit the Sikhs, only India could do this to their own citizens. Many policeman are know coming out and saying this a few have been convicted but it far to slow.

Huh?? What are those points?? Sikhs marriages are written as Hindu marriages?? Whereas Pakistan with a 315 lesser Sikh population has accepted the Sikh marriage act. But still India is ignorant. And did you ever heard about Operation Shudhee Karan?? NO... Then just don't talk.

Just read the book Soft Target and get ur facts straight. And ofr your information it was not written by any Pro-Khalistani. Thanks very much. Sunnybondsinghjalwehra (talk) 22:26, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

Why doesn't the Sikh prime minister of India introduce a bill for the Sikh marriage act? Everybody with an iota of brain knows that "Operation Shudhee Karan" is an imaginary story invented by Khalistani terrorists to create rift between the Hindus and the Sikhs. It doesn't find any mention in mainstream newspapers (Indian or international); only Khalistani sites and print keep spreading lies. Except the Khalistanis, everybody considers the book "Soft Target" as a sensationalist consipracy theory devised to make quick bucks. It was written in 1987 and has already been proved wrong because after the book was published, Inderjit Singh Reyat accepted that he played part in the bombing. His trial was free and fair, and was conducted outside India, in Canada. The judges were not Hindus or Indians. Reyat pleaded guilty and was jailed, proving Soft Target conspiracy theory wrong. If you don't have anything to discuss about the article, please don't troll here trying to create rift between Hindus and Sikhs. We want to live peacefully here in India. Go and create a Khalistan in Canada or Switzerland. 203.158.89.10 (talk) 05:55, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] SEMI-PROTECT

I want that the admins semi-protect this page... Because there are too many pov edits by ips like 91.192.59.145. Please do as soon as possible. Sunnybondsinghjalwehra (talk) 16:01, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree this is Sikh topic , to many Indian nationalist, Congress Party POV's. They even call independent information from Amnesty International and HRW 'propoganda'. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.96.244.27 (talk) 07:15, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Summary of edits on Jan 16, 07

  • Changed the description of book Soft Target from written by journalist to conspiracy theorist. The book never deals with hard facts (although it claims to be so) and makes allegations based on rumors and unproved facts. However I must state that the writers are indeed journalists, but to state that the book is written by journalst would mislead an average user to believe that govt. of India had staged the cowradly terror attack.
  • Removed certain references which are questionable as to their neutrality and verifiability. Editors can refer to WP:V

http://www.singhsabha.com/sikh_national_anthem.htm refers to a personal views of Dr. Harjinder Singh Dilgeer about sikh anthem it nowhere deals with Khalistan's National anthem. I have not removed the http://www.khalistan.net reference as it has been adequately specified in the article that the source has been used to verify what the owner of the site has stated.

  • Minor grammatical corrections.

LegalEagle (talk) 04:23, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

LegalEagle, why did you tag the Canadian journalists as "conspiracy theorists"? I'm challenging this act from you. Please write a critical review of the work by Brian McAndrew et al and prove your claim by publishing it on a credible platform. --Roadahead (talk) 04:51, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
Hi Road, thank you for your question on the veracity or verifiability of my assertion on the two journalists being conspiracy theorist. I believe that we would agree that conspiracy theory can be described as to indicate 'a narrative genre that includes a broad selection of arguments for the existence of grand conspiracies, any of which might have far-reaching social and political implications if true' (when I had earlier replaced the term journalist with conspiracy theorist, I had used the above understanding of the term conspiracy theory for the purpose. So I would be happy to know if you have any other description of conspiracy theory in mind). The book in question was first publishen in 1989 titled Soft Target: India's Intelligence Service and its Role in the Air India Disaster, in 2005 it was republished as Soft Target: How the Indian Intelligence Service Penetrated Canada. A wikipedian has reviewed the book as a piece of 'investigative journalism work', while Google has quoted the book as 'A provocative look', the book claims that Reyat (one of the accused who pleaded guilty) is a Indian agent, Parmar is also an Indian agent who was killed in a staged encounter by the Indian intelligence agencies <page - XIII>, the book also aleges that Samra who was convicted of two murders at Ontario SC is also an Indian agent <page - XI>, after calling everyone an indian agent the authors go a step further to claim that on evidences gathered from a book written by MK Dhar a retired official of R&AW and from unnamed sources from CSIS establishment it seems that indian agencies had penetrated each nook and corner of the canadian sikh society. The claim would seem to be highly improbable to any reader, as Canada being thousand of miles away from India it would be hard to press adequate manpower required to monitor a large group of people, however let us consider for a moment that R&AW was indeed able to penetrate the millitant organisation but does this surise alone suffice to prove that Indian inteligence agencies have a hand in the Air India Flight 182 disaster. Zuhair Kashmeri & Brian McAndrew would have us belive that this bombing was a False flag operation whose sole aim was to malign canadian sikhs. The authors time and again cite Pat Olson and Fred Gibson (which are pseudonyms) who used to work for Canadian intelligence agencies, thus the verifiability of such assertion is zero (olson and gibson could easily be zuhair and brian, but this is again my conspiracy theory ;)). The motif that the book follows is strikingly siilar to those published in wake of 9/11 attacks like 9/11: The Big Lie, The CIA and September 11, The New Pearl Harbor etc, which accuses the Bush administration to destroy WTC so as to fuel a war in afganistan and iraq. In the book Soft Target authors claim that few high profile indian individuals skipped Flight 182, quite strikingly in the conspiracy theories relating to Jewish hand in 9/11 it has been stated that 4,000 Jewish employees skipped work at the WTC on September 11. While the later assumption is dismissed as conspiracy and hoax people find it harder to digest that some indian diplomat had cancelled his trip on the ill fated plane (even though this piece of info is also unreliable). Thus the entire reasonings made by Zuhair and Brian has very little solid evidenvce to prove R&AWs complicity in the AI Flight 182 disaster, the links all depended on vague hypotheises forwarded by millitant sikhs, olson and gibson, and a highly fertile mind drawing upon ideas from the conpiracy genre. Thus such an approach which depends on surmises and shaky hypothesis to allege the security and intelligence agencies of a country to perpetrate a cowardly and dastardly act on its own citizens and others would tantamount to nothing but conspiracy theory. Thus if we call Zuhair and Brian journalist while referring them as writers of the book Soft target we should also start calling holocaust deniers as investigative writers/scholars/researchers.
I would thus request Road to reconsider his decision about reverting from conspiracy theorist to journalist. Awaiting your response.LegalEagle (talk) 16:44, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

COMPLETELY WRONG!! You know noting about Sikh religion. If the Khalistan is a Sikh theocratic then the national anthem will be the same as of the Sikh Anthem. It will be either Deh SHiva Bar Mohe or Deg-o-Tegh-o-FatehSunnybondsinghjalwehra (talk) 15:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Hi sunny I presume you referred to my edits when you wrote about sikh anthem being khalistan's national anthem. i definitely acquise to your logic that in a theocracy religious songs can become national anthem and if i further follow your logic about khalistan being a theocracy then i must admit that sikh devotional songs can become national anthem of khalistan. But then i would propose that we remove the reference of khalistan being a state based on theocratic- democratic principles, as what I know from my scant knowledge of Political science that theocracy and democracy are hard to mix. Awaiting reply. LegalEagle (talk) 16:53, 16 January 2008 (UTC)re

[edit] Zuhair Kashmeri book

The article says:

Two of the accused in the case, the Sikh separatists Ripudaman Singh Malik and Ajaib Singh Bagri were found not guilty and released, while a third accused Inderjit Singh Reyat was sentenced to ten years after pleading guilty.[1] A 1989 book by Canadian journalists Zuhair Kashmeri and Brian McAndrew state that the Government of India could have staged the attack to portray the separatists in bad light.

The theory of Zuhair Kashmeri was address by the the official "Commission of Inquiry into the Investigation of the Bombing of Air India Flight 182" (see Commission of Inquiry into the Investigation of the Bombing of Air India Flight 182 TERRORISM, INTELLIGENCE AND LAW ENFORCEMENT – CANADA’S RESPONSE TO SIKH TERRORISM http://www.majorcomm.ca/documents/dossier2_ENG.pdf DOSSIER 2)


They concluded that:

"Talwinder Singh Parmar was the leader of the Babbar Khalsa, a pro-Khalistan organization at the heart of radical extremism, and it is now believed that he was the leader of the conspiracy to bomb Air India flights."

and that

"the RCMP again indicated that it possessed no evidence to support the theory that the Government of India was involved in the Air India bombing."

The dossier mentions that extensive conversations were taped and translated, however by the time of the trial, the tapes had been erased because of some procedural mistake, making the evidence inadmissable.

In any case, there is nothing to support the Zuhair Kashmiri conspiracy theory.

--Vikramsingh (talk) 06:14, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

I see Vikramsingh has created articles covering sects and people that have a deep hatred for Sikhs such as the Nirankaris who in a terror attack in Amritsar 1978 killed 13 Sikhs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Singhls (talk • contribs) 18:37, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Lovepreet: Truth is that it was a group of Damdami Taksal/Akhand Kirtani Jatha that arrived at where Nirankaris were meeting (inspite of police trying to stop them), and attack was made on Nirankari Baba. His guards responded by opening fire. Eventually, as you know they manged to kill baba.
You or I may not like the Nirankaris believe in. But they have freedom to practice their faith. Guru Tegh Bahadur sacrificed himself so that Hindus can practice their faith:
ਹਰੀਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਤਿਨ ਕੇ ਸੁਤ ਵਏ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਤੇ ਤੇਗ ਬਹਾਦਰ ਭਏ ॥੧੨॥
ਤਿਲਕ ਜੰਵੂ ਰਾਖਾ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਤਾ ਕਾ ॥ ਕੀਨੋ ਬਡੋ ਕਲੂ ਮਹਿ ਸਾਕਾ ॥
ਸਾਧਨ ਹੇਤਿ ਇਤੀ ਜਿਨਿ ਕਰੀ ॥ ਸੀਸੁ ਦੀਆ ਪਰ ਸੀ ਨ ਉਚਰੀ ॥੧੩॥
ਧਰਮ ਹੇਤਿ ਸਾਕਾ ਜਿਨਿ ਕੀਆ ॥ ਸੀਸੁ ਦੀਆ ਪਰ ਸਿਰਰੁ ਨ ਦੀਆ ॥(Guru Gobind Singhji wrote this)
--ISKapoor (talk) 04:46, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
I now understand why he makes comments against Sikhs. People --- Jagat Narain Baba Bhaniara Gurbachan Singh—Preceding unsigned comment added by Singhls (talk • contribs) 18:37, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Surely we can fathom ones interest and tastes from his edits in wikipedia, but from the reasonable arguements and evidences forwarded by Vikram it seems it would be wrong to question his motives as being anti sikh. LegalEagle (talk) 03:51, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
People brainwashed with Khalistani propaganda have a habit of calling anybody with a Nirankari name as "anti-Sikh". This only shows their deep-rooted hatred for other religions, and proves that Khalistan of their dreams will be a nation where all the non-Sikhs will be killed. 203.158.89.10 (talk) 09:04, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
yes, these khalisthanis can never be trusted, if their own Nirankaris are 'anti-sikh' then the fate of muslims, christians, hindus is obvious. I have seen people like Sunnybondsinghjalwehra actively supporting terrorism on the net and should be brought to legal attention by law enforcement authorities in Belgium and United States
Why do high castes and low castes fight against each other?, the Dalits have taken control of UP and say they will teach the high castes a lesson. The same is true in Bihar and Bengal where left wing Naxalites are fighting the high castes.
South Indian Dravidians say they face discrimination from North Indian Aryans because they oppose Hindi and are dark skinned. Hindi.
I suppose people like Modi, Tytler and Bhagat are your heroes.
The UK , EU and USA will arrest and convict anybody involved in torture extra juidicial killings, genocide no matter where they have done it.
Dear all, this is not a discussion page to talk about the Nirakarnis and sikh, this discussion should strictly pertain to issues relating to Khalistan. So in future stick to issues abt the topic. LegalEagle (talk) 02:03, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Semi-protected

I've semi-protected this page for 1 week, as some users are indulging in unnecessary revert wars. Also, please use this page to discuss issues related to the article, not to badmouth Hindus or Sikhs. Wikipedia is not a chat room. utcursch | talk 07:51, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Congress Party Involvement in Terrorism

People need to be held accountable for terror in the Punjab belonging to the Congress party as stated by the BJP. The BJP also state that Congress created the LTTE of Sri Lanka.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/BJP_rallies_behind_Advani_hits_back_at_Congress/articleshow/2901845.cms —Preceding unsigned comment added by Singhls (talk • contribs) 19:17, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of Etymology?

Why was the etymology of the word Khalistan removed? Khalistan is derived from the Arabic word khaalis خالص (pure) and the Persian word stan ستان (land). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.75.246.80 (talk) 05:47, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of "unverified" tag?

The unverified tag has been up since late 2007. The article now has 17 footnotes, most of them from reputable sources. Does anyone object to removing the "unverified" tag? Sections of this article may be prone to NPOV issues, but at least there are a goodly number of cited references. MatthewVanitas (talk) 05:43, 30 April 2008 (UTC)