Talk:Ketch

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Public domain image scanned from original source formerly illustrating this article, now orphaned, placed here in talk in case anyone in the future might find it of some use. -- Infrogmation 23:53, 11 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I think this page needs organising better to separate out gaff and bermudan ketches, and to illustrate each. I have images of both, and am happy to sort it out.Skipperjeru (talk) 19:46, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Yawl Ketch misnomer

(Boatmik (talk) 08:37, 3 May 2008 (UTC)) The explanation given for the difference is the modern one which is generally accepted. However the historical division sheds more light on the types and words.

The definition given in the article is a legalistic one from yacht racing handicapping rules.

Relative to the rudderpost definition means you can move the mizzen two inches and it suddenly changes from a ketch to a yawl. This is hardly a rational function based reason.

Yawl L. Francis Herreshoff (1890 -1972), ([1])the great American yacht designer debunks this use saying that a "Yawlboat is a Ship's boat resembling a Pinnace." (I don't remember which book he talks about this in - it may have been the "L Francis Herreshoff Reader" a collection of magazine articles) So it was primarily a rowboat with auxilary sails. A rowboat needs the middle of the boat clear so the oars can be used so that forces the masts out to the ends of the boat. My thinking would indicate that they were usually steered with an oar.

A Ketch on the other hand is related to the word "catch" (maybe middle English Cacchen - to catch or antecedent). It is a fishing boat. I have seen dictionary references for this when I did the research.

Most fishing boats had transom hung rudders (steering at the back) so the mizzen mast had to go in front of the tiller - which moves it further forward than in a yawl.

Also - and this is where the article is correct having the sail more forward means it can be bigger than the yawl and have some driving power allowing the bow to be held close to the wind. The function is that when fishing you could drop or brail the mainsail and leave the mizzen out and it had enough power to keep the boat moving forward while leaving the main deck completely clear for the nets and the catch.

So a yawl is originally a rowing boat with auxilary sail that is carried on a larger boat and a ketch is originally a fishing boat.

The modern use of the words was to allow an estimation of a racing boat's performance and is intensly legal. It might come from the CCA (Cruising Club of America) or the RORC (Royal Ocean Racing Club) rule or their predecessors.

The rules attempt to estimate the performance of a yacht and are legalistic in intent and structure. Which is why a one inch movement of the mizzen mast can change it from a ketch to a yawl and back again.

The rationale for the difference under the rules were All boats require the sails to balance each other - if you put more sail at the front - you need more sail at the back.

A "ketch" under the rule has the mizzen mast further forward so the sail can be larger and the lever arm to the pivot point of the yacht is shorter.

A yawl has the mizzen mast more near the very back of the boat so the sail can be smaller as the lever arm is longer.

As the result the ketch was a more effectively sized sail (ie bigger) and on a bigger mast which could be used to carry quite large extra sails when going downwind.

So the rule had to estimate ketches as being reasonably fast and yawls as a bit slower so had ratios to go into the handicap system.

I don't have the references any more - does anyone have access to books that shed light on some of my remembered references?

Best wishes Michael Storer [2]