Talk:Juke joint

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[edit] What music was played

If juke joints started in, say, 1862, why is that I always think of them as an early 20th century thing? Perhaps the more relevant question is: what sort of music did they play in these joints in the 1870s? Is this (piano?) music documented in any way? Pick a year: say, 1891. The article seems to suggest that juke joints existed then. So what kind of wild, cool, pre-blues was being thrown down in that year? Anybody know?

Page 80 of "Jookin'..." states that the classic jook might have been found "after emancipation". People who write about blues state that there is no exact date when blues developed, but seem to agree that it emerged as a recognizable form in the early 1900s. That's a lot of decades - about 4) where there were jukes, but no blues. Several very reliable sources state that in general music by black musicians was not all that different than that of white musicians, and that "blues" was just one kind of song that was played when it became popular as the century wore on. Steve Pastor (talk) 23:50, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Here's the first page of a discussion about black string bands. [1] Note the statement about people not knowing anything about. I didn't. Steve Pastor (talk) 23:59, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

From what I know of string bands, they did not play in juke joints. They were like jug bands and played in the same situations. –Mattisse (Talk) 00:56, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

"See what people are forgettin' is there was a country dance sound around before blues, pre-blues, in other words there was a string band sound, maybe an old black guy'd play a banjo, especially in the other states, or he'd play a guitar and a fiddle, which is what Henry Sims was doing. Henry Sims had a black string band. You don't even think about that when you think about the delta, you think about the bluesman with his guitar and a bottleneck." [2] Most jook joionts are supposed to have held about 40 patrons, but some were big enough to hold 100 - BB King in Jookin', and the quoted statement allows that one musician could play in this style. Could you share the sources that say flat out that it didn't happen? Even if that is the case, sources also state that black and white musicians by and large shared the same repertoire up until about the 1890s. Hey, keep up the good work. Steve Pastor (talk) 19:39, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I am not sure what is meant by "country dance". Blacks had their own society, music and dance from the very beginning of their arrival in American and it evolved. I think the issues is that juke joints (not called that) started after the emancipation when blacks were very poor and used what they could, private homes, ramshackle deserted houses, etc. in which to gather for entertainment and relaxation, since, of course, other options were segregated. The lumber, turpentine and sawmill camp owners provided areas for free blacks to gather and let off steam. There are many sources that describe both of these proto juke joints as containing evolving types of music and dance, beginning with the social halls the plantation owners provided plus the slave gathering for religious and other purposed which slave owners did not always condone. There were black musicians who tended to be itinerant before the turn of the century as well as after, many of whom played in both the secular, rowdy venues as well as for plantation owners' gatherings etc. So there was a tremendous mixture and exchange of music styles. The Great Migration brought juke joints to the cities which tended to take on a night club veneer. And, as mentioned in the article I think, the venues tended to get larger. Certainly in the 1950s and 1960s when black music became popular with the black urban class as well as with whites, these venues were thriving.

One of the complicating factors for you and me in trying to figure this out is than writers on black music are oftern white and do not know that much about the history of black culture. –Mattisse (Talk) 20:02, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, see, I don't think you have to be black to evaluate what has been written and recorded. There are in fact many accounts of blacks dancing "Western dances" like the waltz, polka, etc. I almost fell over when I heard Quincy Jones - THE Quincy Jones - say - in a video presentation at the Experience Music Project in Seattle, that he played waltzes schottiches and polkas in the late 1940s in Seattle. I read the same in accounts of Scott Joplin's life. Check up on the Carolina Chocolate Drops who are reviving the black string band tradtion. It's just been over looked by people up until now. Steve Pastor (talk) 21:23, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not saying you have to be black. But the fact you nearly fell off your chair :-) when Quincy Jones said something indicates that whites who have not had heavy exposure to blacks and black musicians often misunderstand things (like thinking blacks did not play so-called white music) because of their lack of knowledge of the history of black culture and music and the history of folk music in American in general.(I am not referring to you here. I read the Slow Drag article.) You have to admit there were some pretty wacky statements in the Juke joint article. –Mattisse (Talk) 21:50, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh, yeah, and that's why I'm glad that someone else is looking at this article. This has been a journey of discovery for me, because, even though I was way into blues about 10 years ago, I am only now learning beyond the Cliff Notes version of what actually happened. And, although some cherished myths are being disassembled, the fuller story is more interesting, I'd say. And some of the stuff is there in the books that I read 10 years ago. It just didn't register at the time. Steve Pastor (talk) 22:13, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

That's my story too. Like finding a whole little chapter in Oliver on juke joints that didn't make an impression when I read it the first time. However there remains a vivid picture in my head of when, as a little kid being driven through Georgia in the middle of the night after miles of heavy forest, coming across a noisy juke joint, music blaring, out in the middle of no where crammed with people inside and out. –Mattisse (Talk) 23:29, 9 June 2008 (UTC)