Talk:Judit Polgár

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Contents

[edit] Esperanto

I remember being told that she and her sisters speak Esperanto -- Error 03:00 May 7, 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Strongest female player?

I don't know enough about women's chess to say for sure, but shouldn't the statement "considered by far the best female chess player in history" be removed as POV? I don't think Judit Polgar even had the same dominance in women's chess that Garry Kasparov had in men's chess in the 1980s and 1990s. --Lowellian 01:53, Apr 6, 2004 (UTC)

I'm certain the statement is accurate. No other woman player has competed with the world's top men on an equal footing. A few may have got the odd win every now and then (Vera Menchik did, for instance), but they never competed alongside the men tournament after tournament, getting respectable or good results. In a sense, it's true that Polgar has never been dominant in women's chess, but that's only because she's never played in women-only events. If she did, I don't think there's any doubt that her dominance would be far greater than Kasparov's dominance in the men's game has ever been. Look at her Elo rating and compare it to her nearest female rival: on the latest list, Judit is 2728 (number nine in the world); Xie Jun is 2564 (outside the top 200). That's a big difference. --Camembert
I think a person would have to be totally ignorant of the facts or just brain dead to dispute the claim that she is the strongest female chessplayer in history. One could not even begin to build a case that any other woman was ever better. Normally I am suspicious of such claims as well but this one is cut and dried. --Malathion 29 June 2005 08:44 (UTC)

Would it be correct to say that no other woman has ever been in the top 100 on FIDE's rating list? --Fritzlein 17:21, 27 Feb 2005 (UTC)

It would be interesting to find out, but I don't have the means to check myself. The FIDE website only has lists going back a few years (and I can't even find those now); I guess that, unless one has access to the FIDE publications themselves, one would have to look for lists in old magazines. The most likely candidate for another woman in the top 100, I would think, would be Chiburdanidze in the late 1980s: she was 2560 in January 1988, which wouldn't be enough for the top 100 now, of course, but might have been back then. --Camembert
In the January 1988 FIDE list, Chiburdanidze was ranked (tied) 47th-49th with a rating of 2560, so Judit is not the only woman ever to have been ranked in the top 100 players in the world. I guess the next question would be what the highest ranking any other woman has achieved. Perhaps 47th is it? It isn't trivially verifiable from http://www.mark-weeks.com/chess/ratings/ where I found the above tidbit of information, but perhaps I will do the legwork myself at some point. If Judit has a peak ranking of 9th and no other woman has a peak ranking higher than 47th, perhaps that will statisfy the NPOV concerns several people have raised. That seems "easily the strongest" to me... --Fritzlein 21:36, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
I am the source of the claim that no other woman has ever been in the top 100 on FIDE. I was under the impression that Zsuzsa didn't quite make the top 100 (I have followed her career as well as Judit's), but she claims herself otherwise, so I am sure she is correct. --63.195.90.12

Judit is 150 Elo above the next woman. There has never been such a difference between men. Judit doesn't even appear on FIDE's women top chart. --Velho 02:42, 28 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Well, she does normally, it's just that she's considered inactive because she took some time off, and inactive players don't appear in the "best" lists. She'll be listed again in the April list. (This doesn't affect your point - I'm just being pedantic.) --Camembert

Susan Polgar told the Wall Street Journal: ""When I was more active, I was ranked among the top 100 overall in the world" ... "There are only two women that have ever done this, and that is my sister Judit and I."

"I don't think Judit Polgar even had the same dominance in women's chess that Garry Kasparov had in men's chess in the 1980s and 1990s."
Judit has never played women's chess—she plays men's events exclusively. On the July 2005 FIDE ratings list she's ranked number 8 in the world. There is absolutely no doubt whatsoever that she is by far the strongest female chess player in history. Quale 04:22, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Attention Ratt: I think it is an exagerration to consider Zsuzsa Polgar to be unequivocally the second strongest woman in chess. Xie Jun is very close to her in rating. It would be fair to say that Zsuzsa's was clearly the second strongest player, but she has not seriously played very actively in many years, and neither has Xie Jun. Perhaps most curiously is that their respective ratings suggest that they have gotten stronger in their virtual retirement. In a rematch between the two, I would call it as a toss up. Furthermore, the entry will almost certainly have to be revised in the next 5 years or so. Up and coming players like Humpy Koneru (who is performing well above her rating in the current Wijk an Zee tournament; which is against stronger male competition) and Kateryna Lahno (who is not doing as well, but is an extremely young 16 years old) seem quite likely to topple her rating as they get stronger. That is why I would prefer some kind of preemptive weasle words in there.

This is very different from Judit's status as the strongest female player. There is simply no doubt about that -- she is a pure genius of unmatched level amongst women, and even very few men have surpassed her. Qed 05:41, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Then I'd recommend that you edit the article to note the nature of Susan/Zsuzsa's rating. Something along the lines of "Zsuzsa is still ranked second-highest among women in the world, according to FIDE rating lists, as of January 2006." I don't have a dog in the fight; all I did was remove the word, "arguably"—which imparts no information to the site—and add a couple of references to back up the statement. Weasel words like "arguably," "reportedly," and "possibly" are, at best, sloppy editing.--RattBoy 22:51, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

I made it say "Easily one of the strongest female chess players in history", as that is by far much more neutral that declaring her to be the best female chess player ever to play.Daniel_123 | Talk 19:31, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

I changed it back to "Easily the strongest female chess player in history". There is ample evidence to support the claim, and I have never heard it disputed. Watering down a claim (e.g. "Some people say that she might possibly be one of the stronger...") doesn't make it more neutral, if everyone agrees to the stronger claim. --Fritzlein 21:47, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Please provide such evidence, until then your comment will be tagged. Themindset 23:13, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV

I would like to make a few points of my own... First off, how can you comprehend the concept that it is not POV to say somone is easily the best ever at somthing? That is not somthing you can prove. Therefore, if there is one person on a little island somwhere who disagrees, then you have made a POV statemnet. Is it true? Propably. Is it a fact? No. Is Roger Federer the best tennis player in the world right now? If you know anything about tennis, you propably say yes. But, if you are looking for actual proof this is true, you should give up now, because there is someone in the world who disagrees. Was George Bush a better presidential cantidate than John Kerry at the time of the 2004 elections? Why don't we all go over there and say he was. After all, the majority of people thought so. But wait; we can't. That's not neutral, as there are people in the world who disagree. You can't prove Hitler was a bad person. That's why the article doesn't say he was. That's my point, forgive the length of it. Daniel_123 | Talk 18:34, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

If you remove from Wikipedia every statement with which at least one person potentially disagrees, little will be left. The NPOV policy itself states something else: By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute." I take "serious dispute" in that sentence to mean more than that there might be someone somewhere who disagrees. There is no serious dispute about whether Judit Polgar is the strongest female chess player ever. You tagged the statement as POV without referencing any dispute. Indeed, I think it would be hard to reference a dispute, because I don't think there is any. I apologize that I reverted to the original fact without providing a reference. My mistake. Nevertheless, it is (IMHO) an equal and opposite mistake to slap the POV label on a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute, i.e. a fact. --Fritzlein 20:49, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Daniel's opinion of what is POV and what is not is ... I won't be unkind, so let's call it ... impractical? Unworkable? Fritzlein is wrong, not "little" will be left, but nothing will be left. NOTHING can be proven in absolutes, not even the law of gravity. There's always a chance that somewhere, in a parallel universe, gravity won't work. Also, if you want to be taken a tat (just a tat) more seriously, try to spell better. ;) --Brian Tjoe-Nij (talk) 01:57, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] name

her name in wikipedia should be written as Judit Polgar this is the much more common spelling, in articles, literature, websites, etc. please see WP:Naming. Themindset 01:56, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

I'm not expressing an opinion on any of this (I wasted too much time over Savielly Tartakower), but you may also want to look at the location of the articles on Peter Leko (or is that Péter Lékó) and Vassily Ivanchuk (Vasyl Ivanchuk). --Camembert 15:48, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Yeah, it's not like we have our Wikipedia articles for Garry Kasparov in cyrillic. Who wants to type "Га́рри Ки́мович Каспа́ров" when they're looking for him? --Ryan Delaney talk 23:36, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Photo?

Ignoring the foregoing comment, isn't there a public-domain photo available? We have photos of Capa, Tal, and even Bent Larsen—why not Judit?--RattBoy 01:58, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Woman Grandmaster

Oddly perhaps I doubt if she's ever won this title as it can only be won in women-only tournaments. PatGallacher 18:28, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that's correct. The WGM title can be earned by achieving norms that are actually easier to get in unrestricted tournaments. From what I can tell, FIDE says that both Judit and Zsuzsa have earned both the WGM and GM titles. Someone who knows for sure will probably chime in. 24.196.91.209 04:42, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
That's right: this is probably the clearest place to look. The "T" column shows the "male" (unisex?) titles the player has; the "WT" shows the women titles. Susan and Judit are both GMs and WGMs. It's clear from the FIDE handbook that a woman doesn't need to ever play another woman to become a WGM herself. --Camembert 17:25, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Friendship with Bobby Fischer

The article on Bobby Fischer claims that for some time the former world champion was living in Hungary and was in contact with the Polgar family. This makes me curious. Fischer hates Jews, and the Polgars are a Jewish family -- their grandmother even died in Auchwitz! I wonder if Judit or any other Polgars have made any comments about Fischer's anti-semitism and how it affects their relationship with them. 24.61.12.141 04:08, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

See this link http://www.dmv.demon.nl/newpage0.html It contains this quote from Susan Polgar, "He would get around that by saying, 'He is a nice person despite the fact that he is Jewish" Rocksong 05:42, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Record against Kasparov

I have reverted Michaelbluejay's edit, in which he removed the qualification that Polgar's only win against Kasparov is in Rapid. This is an important qualification that needs to stay in; because (a) Polgar's record against Kasparov is quite poor (though she's not alone in that regard), and without the "rapid" qualifier the article gives the opposite impression; (b) rapid chess is quite different to classical time control chess, as evidenced by the fact that rapid games do not count towards a player's rating. I'm happy to remove the Kasparov reference altogther, but if the article is to say she's beaten Kasparov, it must also state it was only at rapid chess, IMHO. Rocksong 05:50, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not opposed to the article saying that the win against Kasparov was at a faster time control, but I object strongly to the dismissive way in which it's presented -- "ALTHOUGH her ONLY win against...Kasparov was in rapid chess". That seems to be written to forcefully downplay her accomplishment. Also, there is some dispute as to whether this was really her only win, as it is well known that Kasparov broke the no-touch rule in an earlier game with Polgar. Finally, I agree that rapid is different from standard, but that argument cuts both ways. For example, we could say, "Kasparov's record against Polgar is good only with the standard time control." Either way, one style of chess is disparaged in favor of the other. I'll think about how to preserve the rapid chess designation without making the comment dismissive. -MichaelBluejay 08:49, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
Wait a minute, disparaged?? Classical chess is "real" chess. There is no both ways here. For that matter, there isn't even any argument here. When you list a player's records, you don't specially indicate classical results. If they win some speed tournament, IF it's even mentioned on a list of their accomplishments, it will be tagged specially to indicate it was speed. But winning a speedgame means so much less. I beat a USCF Master in a 30 minute game (over a real board with real clock, not on the Internet). However, I could never do that at REAL CHESS. That's the difference. The faster the time control, the more random the result. That is why it is "disparaged", as you call it. The faster it goes, the less accurate, and the more likely skewed results will come about. Non-masters beat even world-class Grandmasters at high-speed chess for that very reason, but these are hardly worthy of note. Most serious chess players find the idea of mentioning a speed-game win over anybody, Kasparov or not, in an biographical article to be ludicrous in the extreme. The only downplay here is to include a speedgame in a biographical article about a great player, Judit Polgar. THAT is the insult, including something so unworthy of attention. Summary: I contend that the mention of a SPEED GAME should be excluded entirely. It's the equivalent of mentioning that she paid a bill at a restaurant or something, it's not a major accomplishment. IMs can beat Kasparov at speedgames!!! So what? Why isn't that mentioned? Because it's pointless. Nobody cares. Speed it up and almost anybody can beat almost anybody, it randomizes things from a human standpoint. GM Polgar's accomplishments are great without dirtying it up by mentioning something so condescending, as if you have to stretch for silliness like that to try to make her sound worthwhile. Smyslov 03:53, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree with the sentiment, even if not all the details (has any IM really ever beaten Kasparov at speed chess?) In any case Polgar's record is awesome, and she has beaten almost all leading GMs. Why not just leave it at that? Rocksong 04:26, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
Let's make this very simple. During the late 90s and early 00s, active chess has recieved more attention in chess. So much so that most of the top players have played in many active chess tournaments. When the ELO rating formulas were applied to these tournaments it was very clear that Vishy Anand and Alexei Shirov were the best active chess players in the world. Kasparov was, like, 5th or something. Not surprisingly, Kasparov didn't keep playing a lot of active chess tournaments, even though such tournaments were still being organized. Also Kasparov railed against FIDE for trying to shorten the official standard chess time controls, for WC tournaments. The upshot being that Kasparov is clearly not "Kasparov" when it comes to Active Chess. He's just another strong player, at active chess. I also have a strong impression that both Judit and Susan Polgar are unusually stronger at faster time controls (Susan has won the US Blitz championship a number of times, which is far in excess of what you would expect from her standard rating) which is likely due to the way the "grew up" with chess -- they probably have amongst the best natural feel for the game of any players in their generation (Judit tends to have weaker opening and endgame technique than top players, which requires more hard work and technical effort, and more time on the board which Active Chess doesn't allow for). Taking all these factors into account, leaving off the "active chess" disclaimer on her win against Kasparov is really missing a lot of context. A lot of the things I have written here are true, but hard to state in an unequivocal encyclopedic way. The fact that her win came from an Active Chess game is a non-disputed fact, and implicitely encodes (correctly) some of what I have said here.
You can see this as disparaging if you like (a win against a top player in a chess game seen as disparaging?), but that ignores the fact that "Active Chess" has become more popular and such a thing may be seen as also a positive statement. Perhaps it should be augmented with a more impressive fact: Polgar has defeated Anand *MANY TIMES* at Active Chess.  :) Qed 21:51, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
If Active Chess has received more attention than Classical Time control chess, then remind me who is Active Chess world champion, who has qualified for Active Chess GM/IM/FM titles, and where the Active Chess rating list is. Rocksong 02:58, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't claim that Active Chess has become more popular than Classical Time controls. Only that it has become more popular in its own right (it was basically not played in any organized tournaments by top players at all before the mid to late 90s.) This is also irrelevant to the point I am making. If there were a real active chess rating list, it is very likely that Polgar would be in the top 3 or 4 in the world (which is even more impressive than her best ever standard rating ranking) and if Kasparov were still playing he'd probably rate lower than her. So the fact that she could beat him in an individual game at active time controls actually is not that surprising, and I will repeat that a far more impressive result is the fact that she can hold her own against Anand (who would clearly be #1, and by a reasonable margin) at active time controls.
Being ignorant of all this context is comparable to being ignorant that Polgar is the best female chess player in the world. Trying to pretend that this win is in some way comparable to a win against Kasparov at standard time controls is just ignorance. I have played over several of the games between Polgar and Kasparov at normal time controls -- unforunately, she just was not able to rise to his level.
Polgar's most recent rise into the true elite of chess has happened *after* Kasparov's virtual, and then real retirement. So one way to understand this is to realize that Polgar has never faced Kasparov at std. time controls at her peak level (certainly never as a 2700+ player; keeping in mind that Kasparov has been 2800+ for a large part of his career). Another way to understand it is that Kasparov has a super-set of Polgar's style (active, complicating, tactical), so Polgar is not able to bring to the board any capability that Kasparov didn't also have himself and to a greater degree.
Finally, one should realize that Polgar can continue to get better because she is still an active chess player, while Kasparov cannot. The era where she could have tried to prove herself with a solid win or two against Kasparov is over. Now she has other fish to fry. (Actually, I am not aware if Polgar has ever defeated Kramnik.) Qed 09:53, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Well I don't agree with all that, but still it seems that you agree with my basic point: that her rapid win against Kasparov is largely irrelevant, and to highlight it (a single rapid game in more than a decade as a super-GM) actually detracts from her other, more important, achievements. Perhaps a way around it is to pin it as an postscript to the paragraph about the "let-go-of-piece" controversy against Kasparov. Rocksong 00:38, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV tag

Why was this article given an NPOV tag? Michaelbluejay and I were in a quite minor disagreement, and I really don't think the situation has degenerated to the point that the NPOV tag is required. Also, protocol is that, if the NPOV tag is put in, the person putting it in should explain why on the talk page. Therefore, I propose removing it. Rocksong 06:40, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

For a long time there was a large argument as to the fact that you can call her the best female chess player ever. I changed it to one of the best ever, somone changed it back. I changed it back and asked them to please do not revert it, and they left it that way for a long time. I don't feel it is neutral at all to call her the best ever, even if she propably is. On the list of notable male tennis players, we don'y have a note: Please note, these guys are better than like any of the top 100 female players, so you really can't compare between genders, unless one like gets in a car accident, because women are like not nearly as good as good . We still haven't done that.  Daniel_123  ► ► 12:50, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

That would look like this if it were wikified. Please note, these guys are better than like any of the top 100 female players, so you really can't compare between genders, unless one like gets in a car accident, because women are like not nearly as good[1][2][3]  Daniel_123  ► ► 13:07, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

It says she is considered the best female player in history. There is little dispute about that. Someone provided 3 cites. I think you'd have trouble finding a cite that considers anyone else stronger. Rocksong 13:11, 16 September 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Rocksong. I was unaware that anyone could possibly consider that there has ever been a female player stronger than J. Polgar (except perhaps for her sister Susan, who also has a laundry list of impressive accomplishments but is still rated some 133 points below Judit). Also, as Rocksong points out, the article says she is considered to be the strongest female chessplayer, and of that there can be absolutely no doubt. -MichaelBluejay 16:38, 16 September 2006 (UTC)

I provided three cites that male tennis players are better than female ones. So what about that not at the bottom of the list of notable tennis players?  Daniel_123  ► ► 01:08, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't know anything about the tennis community's opinion about male vs. female tennis players, and that's not the article we're editing. I do believe that the chess community's opinion of J. Polgar is that she is the strongest female player ever, and you've certainly provided no cites that suggest otherwise. If you feel strongly that your references about tennis belong on the tennis page then you can certainly argue your case for that over there. -MichaelBluejay 01:51, 17 September 2006 (UTC)
Daniel, you say "For a long time there was a large argument". Please enlighten me: Who claimed that some female chess player is better than Judit Polgar? Who is the player claimed by someone to be better? I am unaware of this argument you make reference to. --Fritzlein 22:23, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
More specifically, for a while there were revertions, some users saying that she was the best chess player ever, and some saying she was one of the best. Then somone made it Easily the strongest female chess player in history. That was soon reverted and then replaced, and I said easily one of the best chess players in history. And, from there there were several arguments posed on some user talk pages, and there I finally made it "one of the strongest female chess players in history". That lasted for a long time until a change was made, finally with some cites. So there is my life story in a paragraph.  Daniel_123  ► ► 23:05, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
Ah, you meant an argument internal to Wikipedia, not an argument elsewhere that could be referenced. I see. But apparently even in the internal argument, no one has ever touted any female as a stronger chess player than Judit Polgar. In other words, there was never an argument about whether or not she is in fact the strongest female chess player of all time. The only argument was about what the article should say. Is this correct? I am still looking for the person who disputes that Judit Polger is the strongest female chess player of all time, so I can ask who they think is/was better and why. --Fritzlein 20:26, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I hate having opinions forced on me, but in this case, is this really a matter of opinion at all? I can't imagine there is any other woman in history who played chess strong enough to even cast this issue into the vaguest cloud of possibility for debate or even contemplation. It would be like taking a superstar NBA basketball player into a basketball game consistinly only of 7th graders and then saying the NBA superstar is merely "one of the best players in that game, but room for debate exists". Sorry, sometimes - not often - but sometimes, it's just not true that there is any possibility of debate. Smyslov 16:59, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

So do you have a an objection to the way the article currently reads or not? If so, what is your preferred wording, and what are your sources that substantiate that preferred wording? -MichaelBluejay 11:01, 20 September 2006 (UTC)

A new issue has arisen, the description of Vesselin Topalov as a "former World Chess Champion". This is laughably absurd. He has never won a World Championship match in his life, and has only played in one (October 2006, vs. World Champion Vladimir Kramnik, which he lost). Here's a complete list of all the world champions, show me where Topalov fits in: 1.Wilhelm Steinitz, 2.Emanuel Lasker, 3.Capablanca, 4.Alekhine, 5.Euwe, 6.Botvinnik, 7.Smyslov, 8.Mikhail Tal, 9.Tigran Petrosian, 10.Boris Spassky, 11.Bobby Fischer, 12.Anatoly Karpov, 13.Garry Kasparov, 14.Vladimir Kramnik. 14 World Champions to date, and unless I'm going blind I listed all 14 of them.

Of course Topalov is a former FIDE world champion. But I think there's no need to specially mention Topalov and Kasparov in the introduction anyway. She's beaten nearly all top players, and is always in or around the top 10. Highlighting that she's won a game here or there against Topalov or Kasparov actually diminishes her achievements. Rocksong 23:21, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Polgar fan club site

I've deleted the link to the "Judit Polgar fan club" site because it adds nothing:

  • it is not official
  • it has had 5 new members in the last year (so it's small)
  • It only has one substantial contributor (so it's really just a blog)
  • there's no Judit Polgar news which can't easily be found elsewhere
  • the message boards are almost unused, except one which is full of spam

Need I go on? Rocksong 23:30, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you need go on. The fact that the site isn't "official" is completely irrelevant. The number of members they have is irrelevant. The fact that it's "just a blog" is not a strike against it. Your claim that "there's no Judit Polgar news which can't easily be found elsewhere" is just wrong -- this is the only site I know of that has all the JP content (including video) in one place, and in chronological order -- the very definition of "easily found". I don't consider spending a lot of time scouring lots of different pages from lots of different sites to be "easily found". The fact that the message boards aren't used is irrelevant. (Since when is that a criteria for External Links?) The reason the site should be listed is simple: It's exceptionally relevant, and there is no better, similar resource that we can list. (As soon as someone finds one, then of course it will be better to list that one instead.) In the meantime, I'm adding this extremely relevant and unique link back. -MichaelBluejay 08:26, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
OK, you're right that the information is in one place, and that this counts for something. For me, it's still easily found elsewhere at TWIC or whatever, but I see how it could help some people, so if no others object I'll let it stay. Rocksong 09:30, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
Wow, I don't think I've ever actually changed anyone's mind before. Now I feel guilty.
I agree that the site has its problems (it loads painfully slow for one), but it's still a good, dense resource about the topic. And again, as soon as any similar site is created or is found that does a better job of the same thing than this particular site, I'll be happy to support listing that other site instead of the current one. -MichaelBluejay 08:25, 8 January 2007 (UTC)