Talk:Judaism and slavery

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Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on December 28, 2007. The result of the discussion was Keep.

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[edit] Antisemitic garbage

Whats the purpose of this article. It was quoted by some skinhead!--Temoni prince 01:19, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

:The purpose of this article is the same as Christianity and slavery and Islam and slavery, namely to provide neutral information regarding a religious group's relationship with the institution of slavery.Bless sins (talk) 02:20, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Actually the purpose of this article is more historical than religious. The articles Christianity and slavery and Islam and slavery deal with the religions more than history.Bless sins (talk) 06:00, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
The purpose is to create a factual article on a historical subject. Atari400 07:14, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

ANTISEMETIC? Where is the antisemitism? The article extracts much from the Jewish Encyclopedia[1] --Gaptech (talk) 22:07, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Atari400's concerns

It seems that several editors agree that the article should be moved to a new title, "Jews and slave trade" because it reflect the content of the article better than the current title. Atari seems to have some objections regarding this move, but without explaining his reasons. Could you please mention you concerns here Atari400? -- Karl Meier (talk) 12:19, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

There is no need for that. Since there exists an article entitled the Arab slave trade, the precedent has been set for such naming patterns. Atari400 07:14, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
The roles played by the ethnic groups are different, so your analogy needs more work. Arrow740 (talk) 10:33, 25 December 2007 (UTC)
That doesn't make any sense. Atari400 16:52, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Link up with Religion and slavery

This article can be a sub article for Slavery and religion#Judaism, after the Afd is over and the title is likely moved to Judaism and slavery/Jews and slave trade. --Matt57 (talk•contribs) 16:53, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't now about that. It depends on the grammar that other articles use for similar topics. It keeps thing a little more organized here on Wikipedia, I would say. Atari400 17:18, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm talking more about the link with the other article, not the rename. --Matt57 (talk•contribs) 17:35, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Right now, I think it is more wait and see, pending the deletion outcome. Atari400 17:36, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Judaism and slavery"

The name of the current article is "Judaism and slavery". I think this may be inappropriate. There is not a single reference to any of the Jewish scriptures, or any of Judaism's doctrines principles etc. The article doesn't mention anything about Judaic law, or what Judaism teaches Jews in regards to slavery.

Thus I propose this article be moved back to "Jews and slave trade" or "Jews and slavery", since this article discusses history of Jews in slave trade and allegations made against Jews. Please note that the allegations made are against Jews and their alleged participation in slavery. None of the allegations are made against Judaism, or its teachings.Bless sins (talk) 02:39, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

There was a community discussion where it was determined, with a strong consensus, that the current name is better. Regrettably, we cannot make everyone happy. You will have to accept the consensus for the time being. Judaism is not exclusively about scriptures. This article is about the religion, Judaism, and Slavery. Feel free to add references to scriptures as appropriate. The article may certainly discuss what Jewish writings say about slavery. Jehochman Talk 03:43, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
There were a couple of opposes on the name "Judaism and slavery". I've started this section to discuss the rationale behind the term "Judaism and slavery". If I remember correctly you a user (or one of the users ) who wished to delete this article or rename it to "Judaism and slavery". Why this title, and not "Jews and slavery"?Bless sins (talk) 03:53, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
We already have Christianity and slavery and Islam and slavery. This title should be consistent with those, and it also helps avoid the POV pushing that "Jews controlled the slave trade", an old libel. Feel free to rework the article and add perspectives on slavery from scripture. Jehochman Talk 04:09, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Agree with jehochman here. I've moved some stuff from Slavery and religion#Judaism. --Matt57 (talk•contribs) 05:00, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Final sentence of lede

I have changed the final sentence of the lede to match what the cited sources say and placed a potentially POV word in quotes to show that it is exactly what one source says. If this is disagreeable, please cite reliable sources that say something else, and then we can modify or add another sentence to reflect any other mainstream views. Jehochman Talk 14:55, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Better, but still doesn't really jibe with NPOV guidelines. Its like the conflict seen at many rock band articles; someone will find a reliable source that says so-and-so is "the greatest band in the world", and put in the article as a statement of fact, which isn't the way it is supposed to go. It is the same here; the article should be noting that historians find the claims to be ludicrous, not declaring that the claims are ludicrous. Tarc (talk) 21:25, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Go ahead and adjust that. Perhaps we should provide context for why this fact is included. The paragraph could start with something like: "A common antisemitic meme accuses Jews of dominating the African slave trade." Of course, we need to find a source that says this. Jehochman Talk 21:29, 31 December 2007 (UTC)