Talk:Juan Ponce de León

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[edit] Biography assessment rating comment

WikiProject Biography Assessment

It could be longer, but it's a nice, tidy B.

(So tempted to put down "living=yes"...)

The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. -- Yamara 01:17, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Governor table

Preceded by
Vicente Yañez Pinzón		 Governor of Puerto Rico
1508-1511		 Succeeded by
Juan Cerón
Preceded by
Cristóbal de Mendoza		 Governor of Puerto Rico
1515-1519		 Succeeded by
Sánchez Velázquez

I've move this here because it greatly disagrees with the sources I see, which make de Leon the first Governor of Puerto Rico, followed by Diego Columbus. So, I want to see the references for the version in the table. -- Dalbury(Talk) 03:05, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

I put it back, but removed Pinzón. It now agrees with List of Governors of Puerto Rico. quadpus 00:07, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ponce de Leon's colony

The sources I used state the site is uncertain, but probably around the Caloosahatchee River or Charlotte Harbot, both of which are well north of Cape Romano. What is the source for Cape Romano as the site of the attempted colony? -- Dalbury(Talk) 01:42, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Date of birth change

Please provide an explanation to change his birthdate from 1462 to 1460 or else the changes will be reverted. Lincher 18:18, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

His correct birthdate is 1460. See here, for example. -- Donald Albury 20:57, 30 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I know, was just looking at the last modification, I made a mistake in changing it, thus the 2nd revert. Thanks for watching the page too. Lincher 00:25, 31 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, now it's gone to "c. 1471". Yet most sources still seem to say 1460. A few even pin it down to 8 April 1460, but that seems to be a confusion with the date he left Florida. I'm changing it to 1460. -- JackofOz (talk) 07:16, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Sanibel Island mention

He sailed back south to [[Havana]], and then up to Florida again, stopping at the Bay of ''Chequesta''
 ([[Biscayne Bay]]) before returning to Puerto Rico.

was changed to

He sailed back south to [[Havana]], and then up to Florida again, stopping at the Bay of ''Chequesta''
 ([[Biscayne Bay]]) or to what is now '''''Sanibel Island''''' before returning to Puerto Rico.

without adding a citation or a source.So the addition of sanibel island will stay on the talk page for now unless the user adds the source of this statement, thus it will return in the article. Lincher 15:37, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

A complication is that there are a lot of blogs and other rather unscholarly pages on the web that state all kinds of otherwise unverifiable things about the early exploration of Florida. Web sources need to be carefully assessed for reliability when conflicting accounts abound. The primary sources give vague descriptions and unreliable coordinates for geographic features, and have have been interpreted by many people with various levels of expertise and objectivity. The source for the account as it now stands is a tertiary source (another on-line encyclopedia). The use of tertiary sources in Wikipedia is discouraged, but it was the best I could find when I added it. We really need to find some good secondary sources that meet WP:RS, and use them to build the best account we can in this article. The best sources, of course, will carefully discuss and assess the various possible interpretations of the primary material. -- Donald Albury 17:07, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the answer. As it stands, you agree with my point that the aforementioned change wasn't sourced and thus doesn't qualify for the article or else the article becomes POV or unsourced or WP:OR. Lincher 20:49, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Fountain of Youth

The entry is mistaken:

Source 1: Samuel Eliot Morison (Southern Voyages, p. 504) cites Peter Martyr, in De Orbe Novo, Decada 2, Book X, writes (Leonardo Olschki translation)that their existed on an island called Boiuca or Bimini, "a spring of running water of such marvellous virtue, that the water therof being drunk, perhaps with some diet, makes old men young again." "It was said, moreover, that on a neighbouring shore might be found a river gifted with the same beneficient property."

Source 2: Las Casas does not mention the search for the fountain of youth, but in note 8, chapter 20 of the Alianza Editorial, 'Fray Bartolomé de Las Casas: Obras Completas 1994, the editors note that (my translation) "the Indians told him that there [Bimini] he would find the fountain of youth or rejuvenation by only bathing in the river." The editors add that what is doubtful is Escalante Fontañeda's report that Ponce De León was looking for the River Jordan.

I suggest a rewriting of this entry, since it is misleading. By the way, Ferdinand had a great interest in rejuvenation since his French chef gave him aphrodesiacs to help satisfy the demands of his young wife Germaine de Foix. ññññ Richard Crosfield.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Richard crosfield (talk • contribs) 10:23, 9 March 2007 (UTC).

How is it misleading? What do you propose to say? Note that the story of Ponce de Leon searching for the Fountain of Youth is not known to have appeared before the memoirs of Hernando de Escalante Fontaneda, who apparantly got the story from the Indians in Florida during his captivity. -- Donald Albury 12:28, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it's misleading at all. It's accurate as it is; the story was first recorded by Fontaneda, whose account informed Peter Martyr. That's all there is to it, really.--Cúchullain t/c 22:23, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

The source is Peter Martyr, who got his information directly from Ponce de León, and Decadas precedes Escalante's memoirs by many years. So the fountain of youth legend has a much earlier source than is acknowledged in the text. ññññ Richard Crosfield.

I was mistaken. It was Antonio de Herrera y Tordesillas, not Peter Martyr, who was informed by Fontaneda. Peter Martyr does describe the Fountain of Youth long before Fontaneda, but he did not claim Ponce de Leon was looking for it. The first one to do so was, as far as I know, Fontaneda (though he didn't believe it); this is what the article says. Even before Peter Martyr there were stories of the Fountain of Youth, for instance in the Persian rescension of the Alexander Romance, but these don't need to be included here, since they have nothing to do with Ponce de Leon.--Cúchullain t/c 17:41, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
There are at least three good early sources that support the notion that Ponce de León, in 1513, did indeed search for the Fountain of Youth on an island in the Indies.

1.Peter Martyr d'Anghiera (Decadas, 1516) refers to an island north of Cuba named Boiuca or Bimini where there was ‘a spring of running water of such marvellous virtue, that the water thereof being drunk, perhaps with some diet, makes old men young again’. We know from the royal patent (23 February 1512) authorizing Ponce’s expedition that he was searching for the island of Bimini, and since Peter Martyr knew Ponce de León, it is reasonable to believe that he was his source of information.

2.Gonzalo Fernández de Oviedo (La Historia general y natural de las Indias , Book 16, written between 1515 and 1535) and López de Gómara ( Historia General de la Indias, p. 72 in the Obras Maestras edition, written between 1540 and 1551) also refer to Ponce de León’s search for an island where there was a fountain ‘that turned old men young.’

As a result, it is misleading to state that the story of the Fountain of Youth began with Hernando de Escalente, who wrote his memoirs in 1575, which is long after Martyr, Oviedo and Gómara. [[Samuel Eliot Morison]], in The Southern Voyages 1492-1616, does not doubt that Ponce de León was searching for the Fountain of Youth and I see no sources to support the theory that he wasn’t. Or am I missing something? ññññ Richard Crosfield.

If Oviedo and Gomara really say that, then the information about Fontaneda being the first to mention the legend is wrong, and I would be extremely disappointed in myself for allowing it to be included for so long. The Peter Martyr connection is still speculative; he doesn't name his source as Ponce de Leon, and the fact that Ponce de Leon was looking for Bimini doesn't mean he was looking for the rejuvinating water per se. I'll do some digging on my own, if you want to add the Oviedo and Gomara info in (with sources) here and at Fountain of Youth, go ahead.--Cúchullain t/c 01:21, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

I have edited this page but can't get my references to stick: They are 1. López de Gómara, Historia General de las Indias, segunda parte. 2. Gonzalo Fernández de Oviedo, Historia General y Natural de las Indias, libro 16, cap. XI. 3. Pedro Mártir de Angleria, Decadas de Nuevo Mundo, Dec 2, cap. X. 4. Juan Gil, Mitos u Utopías del Descubrimiento, 1. Colón y su tiempo, cap. IX, Madrid 1989. Can you help?--Richard crosfield 17:09, 28 March 2007 (UTC)Richard Crosfield.

I incorporated the info, but it would be best if we could name which editions we're using, page numbers, and ISBNs if available. I'm also not 100% sure I separated your references out correctly, please fix them if need be, or tell me what I have wrong. I also added your info to Fountain of Youth.
I'm wondering, though, if the article we had previously used as a source was mistaken in that Fontaneda was the first to connect the fountain of youth to Florida, not de Leon? Do any of the pre-Fontaneda sources make such a connection, or do they only place the fountain in Bimini?--Cúchullain t/c 22:27, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Both Oviedo and Gómera specifically state that Ponce de León was searching for Bimini (called Boyuca by Gómera), an island where he could find a spring that turned old men young. Ponce searched for Bimini (supposedly a Taino name) and found an 'island' he called Florida. Later, on the same voyage, he sailed west and discovered another 'island' he called Bimini. This was almost certainly the northern shore of Yucatan. Oviedo, of course, was in the Indies with Ponce de León and almost certainly heard the news of the magical spring from him. Juan Gil, a leading contemporary Spanish historian on Columbus and the early conquistadores, assumes that it was Ponce de León who told Peter Martyr, and the Court and everyone he spoke to, about this fountain of youth. Certainly Peter Martyr, who was Ponce's contemporary and knew him, wrote about the excitement this then caused in Spain. Also, a Dr. Chanca wrote in 1514 a treatise explaining that medically it was not possible to rejuvenate oneself but that there were waters that could ameliorate certain complaints. Dr Chanca's wrote his treatise in direct response to Ponce's news. The references for Oviedo and Juan Gil (ISBN 84-206-2577.9 (T.I)) are very specific and refer to the Spanish text. In the case of Gomera, the exact reference is Edición Obras Maestras, López de Gómera, Historia General de las Indias, vol.1, p 72., Barcelona 1965 (no ISBN in my copy). It would be interesting to discover who first raised the possibility that Ponce wasn't looking for a rejuvenating spring. Richard Crosfield, 12 April 2007.

[edit] Catholic Church

It would be interesting to know the Church opinion about this article.


[edit] Any Comments About This As a Reference?

David Hager, M.D. 03:04, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

If someone reads the book and finds something useful, they can include it in the article with proper citations, but per our guideline at Wikipedia:Conflict of interest, it would be better if you first discussed here on the talk page any specific additions citing your own books that you want to make. In any case, you need to avoid any appearance of trying to promote your own books through Wikipedia. -- Donald Albury 03:22, 14 November 2007 (UTC)


It's not my book. None are for sale. Just been trying to figure out how to integrate many years of Lin's research and writing into the Wikipedia project. At age 87, he won't be doing it himself. My time is limited. I hope someone might find this work to be useful.--David Hager, M.D. 03:53, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
You can cite any reliable published source to support material in an article. Our goal is to attribute everything in Wikipedia to reliable sources. See Wikipedia:Citing sources for the mechanics of that. Inserting links to web pages about books smacks of commercial promotion, which is not compatible with Wikipedia's purpose. -- Donald Albury 10:56, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Kristina loves... beer —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.60.239.135 (talk) 15:36, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This is cool

I am related to Juan Ponce de Leon. It is really cool. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.166.181.251 (talk) 00:03, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Question about height

Does anyone know how tall de Leon was, especially in comparison to the natives at the time? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.146.75.60 (talk) 02:19, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

well i thoink that juan ponce de leon is a good exploreer —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.232.147.107 (talk) 18:55, 23 April 2008 (UTC)