Talk:Joy to the World

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Joy to the World article.
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[edit] Mariah Carey

I think it might be appropriate to divorce the mariah Carey piece of this article from the main version, giving it its own page.

I substantially agree; at the very least I find the huge Mariah Carey song list at the bottom of the page immensely misplaced. If everyone that sang Joy to the World had a song box like that on this page, the song boxes would be bigger than the article. Besides, there is no consensus that the Mariah Carey recording is the definitive version of the song. Does the song really need a separate article for Mariah's version? --Matthew K (talk) 02:11, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Second thought: I've been bold and made an edit... I'm not looking for an edit war with Mariah fans, so we can discuss it. Anyway, I have left the Mariah reference in the text and removed the song list. This is a Christian hymn and the fact that dozens of performers have sung the song makes it seem inappropriate to have Mariah's discography here. --Matthew K (talk) 02:15, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion about authorship and Handel's relation to the song

The information I've collected on this song suggests this article has at least two factual errors. First, Isaac Watts wrote the words (based on Bible text), not Lowell Mason. Second, Lowell Mason contributed the music, which may have been an arrangement of a Handel work, but this last I have been unable to confirm (nor find a specific reference to what work this is supposedly an arrangement of), and my sources disagree vehemently on the subject. Clearly, some additional research needs to be done here. If this is an arrangement of Handel, someone should be able to state which work it is, so that it can be verified. -- Jeff Q 00:24, 7 May 2004 (UTC)

  • Agreed. I found this article through the Wikipedia List of Orphans, and I can contribute the following: First, you are correct on Watts's authorship of the hymn. Second, I recognize the theme as coming from from Handel's Messiah. The music is listed as Antioch and attributed to Handel in my hymnal. I will amend the article based on what I know for certain; perhaps someone else can add more. Quill 05:19, 15 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Small question. Which bit of Comfort ye... does the refrain come from? I'd always got the Messiah link marked down as being that the first line came from Lift up your heads. To confirm, CyberHymnal also attributes the tune to Handel and the hymnal our family has at home says it was based after a piece by Handel (but doesn't specify). Wooster 14:50, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Yes, good question. The Joy to the World refrain is heard in the accompaniment to Comfort Ye. The orchestra plays what we recognize as 'Heaven and nature sing, a-and Heaven and nature sing...' with a stylized ending and then the tenor's voice enters with Comfort Ye. The melody is repeated throughout the piece, arranged differently, sometimes played underneath the voice part. The entire refrain theme is repeated (different notes, same tune) just before the recitative, i.e. just before the tenor sings: 'The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness....' Quill 22:52, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Golly, so it is. I think that the refrain probably bears as much similarity to this bit as the opening to Lift up your heads (although that's only a bar or two), so it's probably bits of Handel mashed together from all over the place. I also took Joy to the World off the Orphans list, as it's now linked to from Watts' biography. Wooster 08:51, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
More, if you ask me. Lift up your Heads.... has only four notes in common with Joy to the World! I would never have even noticed it if a textbook hadn't pointed it out. Quill 09:54, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Ah, well. That all depends on whether you think a similarity comes from the quantity of its notes or the quality of its closeness. [sanctimonious smile] In favour, I'd point out that those four notes occur at the beginning of both pieces, but I think I can agree to disagree on how similar the two are--you're certainly correct that the refrain appears in Comfort ye Wooster 19:23, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Well, wipe that smug grin off your face 'cause you've missed my point (which I'll admit I didn't make all that well out of fear of become monotonous). I'll continue at your TALK page. Discussion continued atUser talk:Wooster Quill 22:04, 19 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Just reread this; the above sounds testy. I was just joking with Wooster, folks! Quill 23:16, 20 Sep 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Nelson Muntz edition

Should we add the parody by Nelson Muntz as featured on the Simpsons? It went like this: Joy to the world, the teacher's dead, We barbecued her head! What happened to her body? We flushed it down the potty, And round and round it goes, And round and round it goes. (see http://hem.passagen.se/muntz/sounds.htm) Estrellador* 11:27, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

The article currently states that the Simpsons popularized this version? And for that matter, can anyone provide the date or episode? I remember knowing it in the early nineties ('91 or 92), which predated the episode by several years. In absence of other evidence, I doubt that it wasn't widespread prior to the episode.24.1.43.144 (talk) 06:19, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Clean Up

I don't want to refer this article for clean up, but it has quite a few problems. The external link to sheet music appears to be nothing short of an advertisement. Do we really need an entire section about Mariah Carey's version of the song in the song's article. The information seems very excessive - you'd think she popularized the song. Plus, there appears to be some factually incorrect information.

I'm going to remove the link at the bottom as it just seems patently in the wrong, but the rest I don't really know what to do with, other than to point out that it clearly seems to be inappropriate in its current state. 68.97.36.194 08:39, 27 December 2005 (UTC)

I agree that the long part about the Mariah Carey version makes the article extremely unbalanced. It seems more reasonable to have this text in a separate article Joy to the World (Mariah Carey single). Perhaps Extraordinary Machine could explain the rationale for merging that article's text here and categorizing an 19th century church song as a "Mariah Carey single". Most suggestions on Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Joy to the World (Mariah Carey song) seem to have been to merge it into Merry Christmas (album), not here. regards, High on a tree 16:34, 16 April 2006 (UTC)
I didn't think we needed a separate article on a cover of a Christmas carol which is notable only for being a top forty hit in Australia. I wouldn't mind if the excess material was offloaded into Merry Christmas (album), but please, let's not give Carey's version its own article again. If we did that, then we'd need to write separate articles on every cover of "Joy to the World" that was released as a single just to avoid bias. Extraordinary Machine 02:59, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

I believe the Mariah Carey single should be split back into its own page:

  • Contrary to what some have claimed (both here and in the deletion archive), it is perfectly normal in Wikipedia for singles to have their own articles. This is especially true for an artist of Carey's stature; she is the only modern artist with a foreseeable chance of surpassing The Beatles' all-time record for most No. 1 singles on the Billboard Hot 100 (she is either #2 by herself, tied with Elvis Presley for #2, or #3 behind Elvis, depending on how you count Elvis' early singles), even though that record doesn't mean what it once did. Though this isn't one of her No. 1's, Carey's position on that list alone justifies keeping track of all her singles, including the obscure ones.
  • Wikipedia articles on Christmas songs in general only include details on singles that introduced or popularized the song; for example, see "White Christmas", which expands on the Bing Crosby versions but merely lists other artists that recorded it. (Much the same with "The Christmas Song" and Nat King Cole.) "Joy to the World" was well known long before Carey recorded it; its title certainly inspired Hoyt Axton's song for Three Dog Night which predated Carey. (This also obviates Extraordinary Machine's claim that we'd have to split out every "Joy to the World" single ever recorded; besides, ignoring it as an alleged Australian release is questionable under Wikipedia rules.)
  • Though Carey's single is primarily based on the Watts-Handel carol, it does contain an extrapolation of the Axton/Three Dog Night song, so it can be differentiated from this article by more than just "song vs. single".
  • Most importantly, its inclusion in this article clutters it.

--RBBrittain 16:19, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Too funny

I don't know how the whole Wiki thing works, but I found this page looking up the words to a poem, and boy - what a goldmine! Kisses to all of you! J.

[edit] Hoyt Axton version

What about the Hoyt Axton version of "Joy to the World" as performed by Three Dog Night on their album Naturally? Is it a parody or an original Gospel song? This article should include the original Gospel lyrics of the song if they exist. And maybe H. Axton's lyrics, also. Jimb101 06:14, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Handel Authorship

But see New Oxford Book of Carols which disputes the Handel and Lowell Mason authorship.79.65.42.198 17:59, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Headline text