Talk:Journey (band)

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Journey (band) article.
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[edit] Validation

Validation of article performed by WIKICHECK. February 8, 2006 5:43pm. WikiCheck 22:43, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] almost nothing

This article says almost nothing about the band; it's basically three lists. Can anyone expand this? I'm certainly no Journey expert. Also, is the list of singles necessary? Most band pages just list their albums, and mention a few singles in the text of the article (of which this page is certainly lacking). -R. fiend 08:04, 21 Jan 2005 (UTC)

It is noteworthy that some of their songs were used in Tron - 200.195.86.168

[edit] Journey_(band)#Discography

I don't think that the discography section, Journey_(band)#Discography, should list when someone "first appeared" and "last appeared". But, if it should, why only the two Steve's, Perry and Augeri? Rolie and Cain (besides the main man Schon) have also been very important pieces in the evolution of Journey (no album pun intended). Rolie (along with Schon) was instrumental (no music pun intended) in the band getting to a point where Perry and Cain where even invited to join the band. Cain's "sweet as sugar" lyrics (agriculture pun toward sugar cane "is" intended) are one of the main reasons the band was as commercially successful as it was. Cain, Schon, and Rolie are continually ignored for their contributions to the Journey (intended). Now I am not taking anything away from Perry, I love Steve, and he was a BIG cog in the wheel (in the sky) for the band to keep on turning, but these other guys need some "lovin'" too, okay they'll get no "touchin'" and "squeezin'" from me. But, Cain, Rolie, and Schon, and to a lesser degree even Valory, Smith & even Fleischman, did their integrul parts. Let me know if this issue will cause us to go our "separate ways", or is anyone else "feeling that way", "feeling that way, too?" Comments? WikiDon 22:38, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I recall hearing that one of Journey's more popular songs is written with three-beats-per-measure. Can anyone confirm this? If it's true is it something worth putting in the article, it's rather unusual. -anonymous. 13:46, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New Photo

THIS IS NOT "The Original Journey Lineup" It took Steve Perry FOUR years to get there. Can anyone tell when this photo was taken, I would guess Dec. of 1978, need HELP! When did Neal get rid of the HUGH FRO?

If I'm not mistaken that photo is from the "Separate Ways" video. I hope that helps. -R. fiend 22:42, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] The history was there

There actually was a full history of Journey in Wikipedia, it just wasn't in this article ... rather, it was spread out among the different album articles and the different member articles. Hence I've been pulling them into and integrating them with this article. I've done it through 1987 and Perry leaving, which is where I get off. Someone else can finish the job -- look in the Steve Perry and Arrival articles in particular for material.

I've now done this merging in. Wasted Time R 03:51, 25 July 2005 (UTC)

This article also had a good deal of extraneous material about the history of Santana and so forth. It's all been moved to the appropriate other articles. Wasted Time R 01:47, 15 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] RE: "Extraneous Material"

RE: "Extraneous Material" and Wasted Time R, you removed what I had written about the beginnings of the band, saying: "This article also had a good deal of extraneous material". But this tells how the band came about, if it was not for Rolie, Schon, and Herbie Herbert coming together in Santana there would be NO Journey. Then you turn around and put in stuff about "American Idol" "Clay Aiken" and "Kelly Clarkson". Now the former leads directly to the formation of the band, the latter has nothing to do with "THE BAND", talk about "extraneous material". Which is more important? The formation of the band is a LARGE chunk of its history. Randy Jackson was just hired to play one tour, and that was it. The history of the band should NOT revolve around hired guns just to get through a tour. It should revolve around memebers of the band that were critical to its life, Rolie, Schon, Herbert, Cain, Tickner, Valory, Prince, Dunbar, Fleischman, Smith, and of course Perry. There were three major incarnations to the band becoming the group we know today, the first was the initial formation, then the addition of Dunbar and Fleischman, and lastly the addition of Perry and Cain that propelled them to the peak of their success. For the most part everyone else after that were just hired guns to get through either studio sessions or tours (except for Augeri, who was a permentant replacement for Perry, but Cain and Schon run the show). Herbert formed the band for SCHON, it was Schon's band from the beginning, and Journey is Schon and Cain's band today. If it were not for Schon, there would in all likelihood be no Perry, and no Journey. Perry had tried for 10-years to break through in L.A., he had given up and headed back home, and if not for the demo tape that he left behind, that would come across Herbert's desk and ears, he even says he would probably have become a lounge singer in Stockton, Fresno and Sacramento. Without the addition of Perry and Cain (who doesn't get the credit he deservers!) the band would most likely not have become a meteor that it became. These are the main parts that paved the way for all others to hitch their ride to this entity. Life-long, die-hard Journey (like me) respect the beginnings of the band, and the essential pieces that came five (or so) years later to take them to the next level. Rolie was a major cornerstone piece to get the band started. And if not for Herbert, who knows what direction Schon would have went. Jackson is a very good bassist, no doubt about it, but in the history of entire life of band, they could have just as easily hired someone else for that tour. So, when it comes to "extraneous material", where the band came from, how it got together, and how it added Perry and Cain are what really count. If not for Schon, Herbert, Rolie, Perry and Cain, there would not have been all that CASH to do anything else. WikiDon 18:36, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

I don't think I removed anything you wrote, I just moved some of it to Santana's history, and other asides (like "We Built This City") to the appropriate article. I've added an explicit "see Santana history" line in the front of the Beginnings section now. Wasted Time R 18:59, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
    • I knew that the "We Built This City" was a long stretch when I wrote it, I just did it for an FYI, a little added trivia for music history fans. But if it goes, then surely American Idol stuff should be jettisoned? WikiDon 19:03, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
A little trivia is ok, it just belonged in Jefferson Starship, not here.
The rest of your criticisms are unnecessary. Feel free to add more about the pre-Perry band, I have little familiarity with those records. Feel free to add more about Cain ... before I made my additions, there was nothing about him at all! I added that his songwriting and keyboards were a key part of their sound c. 1983 and that he wrote "Faithfully", one of their best-known tunes. If you want to elaborate on how Herbert found Perry, go ahead, I think I didn't touch your material on that.
Finally, re the Randy Jackson/AI material, this is interesting because to a whole younger generation, it's the hook by which they'll be interested in Journey. I agree that Jackson's role was of little significance at the time, but it is now, because people are singing Journey songs on the top-rated American TV show because of him, and they show film clips of Journey's 1986 tour because of him, and so forth. It's not a zero-sum game; you can add as much as you want to other eras of Journey without having to limit mentions of Jackson and AI. Wasted Time R 19:09, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
As a reality check, look at the article before I touched it: [1] A lot on the history of Santana and the formation of Journey, then next to nothing for 15 years, then some scattered material on the post-Perry years! Wasted Time R 19:14, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

I had intended to write a complete history, at least until 1990, but I was going to do it in stages. I just had not got around to it, other fish to fry you know. My next segment was going to be the first three albums, then the Perry-Cain era. I just had to push it down the priority list. WikiDon 19:27, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

OK, that's fine, you're not pre-empted. You can still do your writing, modifying/expanding/replacing what I pulled together as you see fit. If you yank something that I think is important, I'll try to fit it back in into the context of what you did. In other words, the normal WP process. Wasted Time R 19:46, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

!!Hey there just to clear up something, "We built this City" was actually by Starship, not Jefferson Aeroplane as someone has stated above. I know it's the same band but we wouldn't want any 8th graders failing their research assignments now would we?


[edit] Not Soft Rock?

Journey has more of a rock sound then then Maroon 5 ever has and since the lady who is runs the Maroon 5 bord insist Maroon 5 is not soft rock. If Marron 5 is not soft rock then Journey who has far more of a rock edge to them is not soft rock. DLA75 20:03, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Steve Perry

Long time Journey vocalist Steve Perry also cannot be ruled out for the position. Although Perry has stated numerous times that he would not return, he has been quoted repeatedly saying "never say never" in regards to returning to the band.[2][3]

This information is heresay, as Steve Perry was reported to be writing songs with Nuno Bettencort.

AlltimeJourneyFan 16:33, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, it has been reported that Perry is writing songs with Bettencort, but that does not mean that he is ruled out for the lead singing position with Journey. He has been quoted as saying "never say never," therfore he cannot be ruled out. He can write songs with anyone he chooses, but there is no evidence that writing songs with other musicians will stop a rejoin, if one is to occur.

[edit] Fan Sites/News Sites/Unofficial Sites

I only look at this page every couple of years, but the last time I checked, there were a number of unofficial (read: not band- or artist-supported) sites listed under the "external links" heading, like The Journey Digest (disclosure: these included my own). I am assuming that this decision was made by a Wikipedia Admin or two, having decided that their inclusion might not conform with N.P.O.V. Although I would argue that such decisions should be made on a case-by-case basis, I can understand why a blanket removal might be most effective. Still, there are some "official" sites that are less neutral than some "unofficial" sites.

If the deletions have occurred not because of an admin decision but due to some actions by my fellow editors, then I might feel more free to replace them.

Thoughts?

Dave Golland 18:55, 4 July 2007 (UTC)


The edit appears to have occurred on March 3 of this year; here is the information: 02:31, 3 March 2007 156.34.237.133 (Talk) (WP:EL/WP:MoS-L cleanup) This does not appear to be the result of a discussion.

Dave Golland 19:12, 4 July 2007 (UTC)


All but the official site links were removed a few days ago based on what appears to be a very quick attempt to comply with WP:EL. But further down that style page is the following: What Should be Linked. Note that #4 would have editors include "Sites with other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article, such as reviews and interviews." So without knowing the content of anything other than my site and the Digest, I've returned only those two to the page (since they each contain numerous reviews and interviews), and renamed the category. Other webmasters should feel free to add themselves to the list if they contain interviews and/or reviews (as long as their sites do not fall under the Restrictions on Linking category).

Dave Golland 15:36, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Journey Userbox

Add User:UBX/Journey with & to your userpages! PGPirate 19:28, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removing speculation

I removed the following yesterday as speculation, and it was reinstated yesterday:

The brief tenure of Jeff Scott Soto as lead singer should bring to mind the equally brief tenure of Robert Fleischman in that position in 1977, out of which, of course, came the decision to hire Steve Perry. The band may be seeking to find the same formula thirty years later.

That's speculation and I would guess something like weasel words or something like that as well. It's not fact and doesn't belong, as far as I'm concerned. If someone disagrees, please provide a reason before just reinstating it. Thanks. Rmkf1982 Talk 17:47, 27 August 2007 (UTC)


I didn't simply reinstate it. I rewrote it and reinstated it, trying to make it slightly less speculative prima facie. That's because I agree with you that it needed work but not that the concept needed to be removed altogether.
"Should" is used not as something less than fact but as a linguistic tool designed to get the reader to compare this latest development with a prior development in the history of the band.
That the band may be seeking to find the same formula thirty years later is slightly speculative, but it is based on my knowledge of the band and its history (I am a professional historian who happens to be a fan of the band, and one of my interviews is cited in the text). In this case it is important that it is located at the end of the band's current history. Since the band continues to exist, it's history isn't finished, and this and the following paragraph are temporary--that is, they will likely be removed very quickly after the band makes a decision. In the meantime, I think it is useful to attempt to get the reader to think about the past and how it affects the present set of facts.
I will reinstate it now, but invisibly, in the hope that you and I can continue this discussion so that we can together find a way to convey what I would like to convey without violating the Wikipedia norms. Feel free to continue the discussion here or via e-mail, but if you continue it here I can't promise a fast response.
Dave Golland 14:32, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

I understand exactly what you're trying to do and for the record, it's a really good article and from the history of the page it looks like you're responsible for the vast majority of the content. I had in fact assumed that the article was the result of a number of people whittling away at it for ages, so the fact that it seems to be largely a solo effort (without meaning to belittle anyone else who might have contributed) is certainly to your credit.

After I left my original comments above I had a look at your own site via the links on your user page and I appreciate and recognise that you are something of an expert on the band. However, I'm not sure where Wikipedia stands on refererncing / citing own works such as your interview. Again, I don't mean to imply that there's anything inaccurate or unworthy about the interview as a source, but there are the Wikipedia policies on Original Research etc. to think about. Where that fits in with referencing an interview, which, despite technically being original research, is also a published work, I don't know - there might be someone else reading this page with a better idea or better way of saying this.

In short, I know what you're trying to say with the couple of lines about a new lead singer, and I know why you're trying to say it. It's sort of talking about current or future events in the same way that for example, articles about upcoming seasons of 24 or something like that would be, so I suppose the concept of speculating on how something might turn out isn't such a bad thing after all. Your description above, of them being temporary paragraphs, sums it up in one. The hard part though is phrasing it in such a way that it doesn't just attract the attention of passing reader / editors who will remove it as speculation. Maybe it's as simple as slapping the template tag on it that says "this section discusses future events etc. etc. etc. that you see on other articles, reinstating the paragraph as is, and leaving it at that?

And once again, well done on the article. I was looking at your contributions page and you seem to have stuck to the Journey article but based on the quality of this one, and on your work as a historian, there's bound to be plenty more articles you could turn your hand to as successfully if you were interested? thanks Ronan Rmkf1982 Talk 18:13, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi Ronan--
Thanks for the compliments. I can't take credit for most of the content; I've just spent a few hours this summer doing some serious revisions. Before that I hadn't looked at the page in a year or two. I'm flattered that you think I should turn my hand to other entries; right now I'm working on my dissertation, so it's hard to find the time (although I used Wikipedia for some research recently and contemplated making a few minor edits on some of the entries I viewed, so you never know).
I'd like to avoid including a template. You'll see that I've done some cleanup work on the page in order to eliminate two templates already. Let's try a footnote. What do you think of this:
The brief tenure of Jeff Scott Soto as lead singer brings to mind [eliminating "should"] the equally brief tenure of Robert Fleischman in that position in 1977, out of which, of course, came the decision to hire Steve Perry. Fan speculation hints that the band may be seeking to find the same formula thirty years later.*
  • This is a non-factual temporary statement, employed for illustrative purposes, and will be removed when the band makes a decision.
Dave Golland 15:08, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

You know what? I think the "fan speculation hints that the band may be seeking...." line is perfect, without the footnote. It states that fans are speculating, but doesn't make the article itself speculatory, if you get my drift. Especially if it referenced a site or article somewhere where such third-party speculation could be found. By saying "fan speculation" it's clear that it's not a guaranteed fact.

Good luck with the dissertation.

Rmkf1982 Talk 18:13, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removing Links to Forums

I just removed two links to forums that contained long explanations for noncompliance with WP:EL from the "External Links" heading of this entry (pardon the run-on sentence). If you think they should remain, please respond here and explain why you disagree with the rule citation so we can discuss it. But first, please see the "Fan Sites/News Sites/Unofficial Sites" discussion above.

Dave Golland 22:27, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Page in Need of Cleanup?

Today I removed an "In need of cleanup" tag. My feeling is that the problem is regular vandalism, not the general content of the page. Vandalism can be (and is) corrected on a case-by-case basis.

There is a large hidden section of band trivia that ought to be integrated into the rest of the page content, but as long as it's not visible, it doesn't affect the overall cleanliness of the content.

If you'd still like the page to be cleaned up, please explain where in particular it's needed.

Dave Golland 15:54, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Active Dates, Bolton, and Walden

Two editors are going back and forth about the active dates of the band (1. 1991? 2. 1995 or 6?) and two supposed former band members, Bolton and Walden.

I've made a revision (changed 1996 to 1995) but left the rest of the current page as is, so that we can discuss this in here, rather than going back and forth with competing revisions.

1. As far as I can tell, 1991 saw three members of Journey team up on stage for a few numbers; that does not make the band active for that year. If anyone has contrary information (or opinions), please state them here.

2. The band did reunite in 1995, not 1996. 1996 was when the resultant album was released. Unlike 1991, this was a formal reunion with five members participating and which resulted in an album and the continuation of activity.

3. I think Jon Cain was once a songwriter for Michael Bolton, but I don't think Bolton was ever in Journey. Walden's name sounds familiar, but ditto. If anyone has a citation or other reference showing that wither Bolton or Walden were in Journey, please discuss it here.

Dave Golland 23:24, 7 October 2007 (UTC)


In February 1987, once the Raised on Radio tour was completed, lead vocalist Steve Perry and drummer Mike Baird left Journey. They were replaced by lead vocalist Michael Bolton and drummer Michael Walden. Here is the source. (http://www.journey-tribute.com/journey/resources/timeline/radio.html)
68.88.204.59 03:15, 10 October 2007 (UTC)


Hi-- This source refers to a single appearance at the BAMmies--not even a full concert. I'm revising the entry.

Dave Golland 16:23, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

1. As far as I can tell, 1991 saw three members of Journey team up on stage for a few numbers; that does not make the band active for that year. If anyone has contrary information (or opinions), please state them here.
That is correct. They teamed up for a tribute to Bill Graham, held in San Francisco. Those members were Neal Schon, Steve Perry and Jonathan Cain.
3. I think Jon Cain was once a songwriter for Michael Bolton, but I don't think Bolton was ever in Journey. Walden's name sounds familiar, but ditto. If anyone has a citation or other reference showing that wither Bolton or Walden were in Journey, please discuss it here.
Both Jon Cain and Neal Schon performed on Michael Bolton's 1988 album "The Hunger". It's rumoured they considered Michael Bolton for the Journey lead singer position and Michael turned them down, but as far as I know there's no proof this even occurred.
thecrazycatlady 11/26/07

[edit] Hiring a New Lead Singer in 2007

Jeremey Hunsicker didn't turn down the job as lead singer. You reference his blog as your source. If you read his entry on the blog, he blew up at Jonathan Cain telling him he may not be the right man for the job. The next day, he called him back, asking to remain in the running for the job. He admits this in the comments section of his blog titled "Blah Blah Blah" and even says there, he didn't walk away from the job. Therefore, it's not factual to say he withdrew himself from the running or turned down the job.

thecrazycatlady 11/26/07 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thecrazycatlady (talk • contribs) 01:31, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

As with most of the page, I didn't write the passage but I did edit it. I haven't looked at Hunsicker's blog since then (early October, I think). If you feel that the text should be updated or changed, please do so. I don't "own" or "supervise" this page, I've just been looking at it regularly since last summer when I put a few hours of work into overhauling it (mainly the history section). You have as much a right to update the page as I, and it seems like you know more about this area of the band's history then I do right now. So go for it! Dave Golland (talk) 18:07, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rewrite

This entire page needs rewritten, the tone and style of the article is NOTHING like a wikipedia article which is suppose to be based on history and fact. I had to stop half way through, cmon people someone get to it and rewrite this deal from scratch. Unfortunatly I am not a good writer, but I know a LOT of you out there are!!!!!!!!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.13.41.64 (talk) 19:32, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I know. There's a "magazine" box at the start of the history section and I've discussed it with the person who put it there. I overhauled the history last summer but I didn't know at the time what sort of style Wikipedia requires. I'm incredibly busy now but hopefully I'll be able to work at it in pieces over the next few months. Others may choose to help out as well. In the meantime, try reading it as is. The style is wrong but the information meets N.P.O.V. and is copious (if wordy).Dave Golland (talk) 03:46, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Stylistic Rewrite in Progress

In the past couple of weeks I have begun a major rewrite of the section on the band's history, required to remove the "Magazine" box. I am going one sub-section at a time, from the latest to the earliest. As I go, I am preserving the previous text but making it invisible using html code. I'll delete these invisible sections from the code a few days after I finish the rewrite, but they'll still be accessible in the "history" tab at the top of the page. I may go back and access the "magazine" version and re-publish it in a more appropriate venue since it clearly has some value as a history of the band (just not as an encyclopedia entry).

In the process, there are aspects of the story that I am eliminating altogether. While I am trying to keep as much of the history as possible given the brevity required by encyclopedic standards, there may be items that I am eliminating that bear discussion here.

One story in particular that I just took out was the Kenny Sykaluk story. As a human being, I think it's a wonderful story, and as a fan, I think it's an important episode in that it highlights the humanity of the band members, but as a Wikipedia editor I cannot see how it merits inclusion, except perhaps on the page of an individual band member like Jonathan Cain. It clearly has a place in magazine articles on the band, and was entirely appropriate for the narrative presented in "Behind the Music," but not in an encyclopedia article on the band.

I could be wrong about much or all of this; I've been known to be wrong in the past. Interested parties should feel free to read the invisible text (you can see it when you click "edit" in any section) and re-insert portions as you feel necessary (but please bear in mind that you should rewrite those portions to conform with Wikipedia standards). You might also choose to make suggestions here and let me make the changes you'd like to see. But please bear in mind that I do not "own" this page; I've just taken a recent interest in it.

Dave Golland (talk) 17:42, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

All done. Hope everyone enjoys it.Dave Golland (talk) 04:57, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Can't say I do. The same kind of lengthy, "magazine"-style, non-"encyclopedic" treatment of musical artists that you deplore here is also present in the Mariah Carey, U2, Gwen Stefani, and Bob Dylan articles. I suggest you go there and start reducing them just as much as you reduced this one. What, they're all Featured Articles? Hmmm. Wasted Time R (talk) 22:39, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

"Deplore" is a bit strong, since I personally prefer the magazine style. Someone who appeared to be a more experienced Wikipedia editor without any particular interest in Journey put a "magazine" tag on the page in late November or early December. We discussed it and I did the more comprehensive rewrite detailed above.Dave Golland (talk) 03:17, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

"Magazine" tag removal or not, the current article is inadequate. It doesn't convey very well the nature of Journey's music or why it was so popular. It mostly just chronicles album releases and personnel changes. It doesn't talk about Perry's impact on rock vocals within the genre, it doesn't talk about Cain's growing impact as a songwriter, it doesn't talk about how Schon's guitar was used in arrangements, etc. If you compare it to other FA music articles, you'll see what I mean. I think you got some bad advice from whomever this "more experienced" editor is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wasted Time R (talk • contribs) 03:24, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I do not pretend to have completed a perfect rewrite. If you think those items belong, why not put them in?Dave Golland (talk) 03:43, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

OK. I haven't worked on this article in a couple of years and Journey is kind of low on my priority list right now. Maybe someday ... I was more interested in correcting a misperception that you seemed to have. And I'm sorry for the snarky tone I started out with; it's been a long Wikipedia day. (Whatever you may think of the music articles here, don't ever, ever, ever start editing political articles!) Cheers. Wasted Time R (talk) 03:50, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:StreetlightPeople.jpg

Image:StreetlightPeople.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 06:28, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I have added a pic[4] from the Augeri era to the page and licensed it for Wikipedia use. We can use it as the main pic if the Wiki Bot removes Image:StreetlightPeople.jpg, bit I'd prefer it if we had a pic of the band from their height of popularity, i.e. 1981-83. Does anyone own a photo (as in you took it yourself or have the copyright) of the band from that era?
Dave Golland (talk) 21:45, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Citations & References

See Wikipedia:Footnotes for an explanation of how to generate footnotes using the <ref(erences/)> tags Nhl4hamilton (talk) 09:09, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Out of Context Information

"To date, Journey have been used as and maintained as Team Zebra's very own rock band. Without the contributions of Journey to Team Zebra, vitally important decisions made during meetings with coffee and battenburg would not have been possible. Team Zebra consists of two legends Scott and Hassan. They are both exceptionally happy to hear that Journey will be in Dublin in June of 2008."

Is it just me or does this information seem unsupported? Out of Context? Just like its coming out of no place with no backing information? What is Team Zebra? I am pretty sure I might know who Scott and Hassan are in the context of the music industry, but am I sure? What does it mean to be Team Zebra's very own rock band?

Haplopeart (talk) 21:06, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

That was vandalism and it looks like someone's already removed it. In future, add to the bottom of talk pages, not the top.Dave Golland (talk) 03:37, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] WP:NOR

I flagged this as such due to the number of uncited subjective statements made in the History section. While it is still desirable in a biographical article to cite statements that events occurred, to make uncited claims as to the motivation behind these claims would fall under the auspice of WP:NOR. Also any actual figures (such as sales figures) should be cites as well.

Examples:

  • Journey released their eponymous first album in 1975, and rhythm guitarist Tickner left the band before they cut their second album, Look into the Future (1976). Neither album sold much more than 100,000 copies - The fact that the word "much" is used here implies an esitmate on the part of the editor. A more accurate number should be used, and the source cited.
  • Drummer Aynsley Dunbar did not get along with singer Steve Perry and did not approve of the new musical direction. - The fact that the band members did not get along must be cited as it a purely biographical statement about two living people that carries negative overtones.
  • With Cain's replacement of Rolie's Hammond B-3 organ with his own synthesizers, the band was poised to redefine rock music for a new decade in which they would achieve their greatest musical success. - This statement is not presented in a neutral point of view and if the statement is a reiteration of another article, it must be cited.
  • ...when they returned to Journey to record their 1986 album Raised on Radio, bass player Ross Valory and drummer Steve Smith were fired from the band for musical and professional differences. - Again, biographical statement with an interpretation of motivation. Must be cited or removed.
  • In 1995 Steve Perry agreed to rejoin the band on the condition that they seek new management. - Again, biographical statement with an interpretation of motivation. Must be cited or removed.

These are just a few examples. While there is a lot of good information in this article, the lack of needed citation must be addressed (especially with biographical statements about living persons). LeilaniLad (talk) 14:09, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. I can cite the second and third ones using the Robyn Flans book. Editors, do you have other citations? Dave Golland (talk) 16:13, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
I've also cited the second and the fourth with my own interview of Steve Smith. Dave Golland (talk) 16:38, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
I've rewritten the line for the first item and cited the Wikipedia Journey discography. That's it for me today. Does anyone have a source for the fifth (Steve Perry returning only on condition of Herbie Herbert being fired)? Also, let's try to get a more comprehensive list of needed citations here. Editors? Dave Golland (talk) 16:50, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
I've added copious citations, placed several refs that say "citation needed," and removed the tag. Editors, the needed citations are all in the "break-up" section of the history. Dave Golland (talk) 05:02, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Induction in the Vocal Group Hall of Fame

I am not satisfied that induction into the Vocal Group Hall of Fame is important enough to merit mention in the introduction to the article. While the organization seems legitimate, the fact that there have been several hundred inductees in less than ten years of operation appears suspicious. More to the point, what are the standards for induction? Are there any noteworthy groups that haven't been inducted?

Are the members of Journey even aware that they have been inducted? The band posted no notice on their website in 2006 announcing their induction.

I suspect that the line was placed by someone advocating for the legitimacy of the Vocal Group Hall of Fame. If that is the case, Journey's page is not the place to do it.

Dave Golland (talk) 03:52, 10 May 2008 (UTC)