Talk:Journey's End (Doctor Who)

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Contents 1 Daleks? 2 tidying up links 3 the daleks are back, ive seen photos 4 Where's Sarah? 5 K9 6 Companions and Daleks 7 "also set in World War I" 8 DWM 9 Cybermen 10 Davros 11 Foreshadowing 12 Companions 13 Richard Dawkins 14 Chloe Georgeson 15 Companion list 16 External link 17 Cult Times 18 Episode 12 19 New Doctor Who Christmas Special Title

[edit] Daleks?

Just throwing it out there, but does that Dalek line in the description have any sources? (203.164.128.138 (talk) 10:32, 2 April 2008 (UTC))

No, it doesn't, and I've deleted it. —TreasuryTag—t—c 10:42, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

It seems pretty certain Daleks are in it, it was a little hard to hide a small platoon of Daleks when filming this episode :p. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.156.83.239 (talk) 10:20, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] tidying up links

As we know title order now, can someone please edit this page so it allows preceeding link? thanks (code below - see, try to save people the effort) preceding = "Turn Left" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Crescent (talk • contribs) 23:32, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Episode 12 still has no title. — Edokter • Talk • 23:39, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

But we know the episode exists, so couldn't the article exist with an unknown name, especially since we know it is the forst part of this episode NIKKKIN (talk) 19:02, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I wonder whether the name not being announced has any significance!? All the others have been named after all. --Cameron (t|p|c) 14:33, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

RTD stated "it would give too much away". Anyway, there's also a navbox at the bottom, so there's no pressing need to include a link in the infobox. — Edokter • Talk • 14:56, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] the daleks are back, ive seen photos

ive seen photos of daleks, and you should add a thing noting that 'journeys end' was a gridlock working title. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.143.188.180 (talk) 11:59, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

We shouldn't, because we can't find a reliable source for either of them. —TreasuryTag—t—c 12:18, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

How about all the clips of filming? LuGiADude (talk) 02:43, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Nope, we need it in writing. --Cameron (t|p|c) 14:30, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't see why only written sources are acceptable. The cast of the confirmed season finale have been seen filming with Daleks, which in turn has been seen on the new mid-season trailer. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.156.83.239 (talk) 10:22, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't care! Our policy is abundantly clear that only reliable sources count. —TreasuryTag—t—c 10:24, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Mid season trailer? Did I miss something? --Cameron (T|C) 13:14, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

[1] Aired last night! —TreasuryTag—t—c 13:15, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

If The Stolen Earth has Daleks, this episode will too. Can we add the category box? Digifiend (talk) 12:39, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Where's Sarah?

On the Info box Sarah Jane isn't there, but if you edit the page, you see that she is, but she's not showing up? Why?--I.W Iway amway Imagineway Izardway. 20:17, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Only up to four companion parameters are supported. But do we have an official source yet? — Edokter • Talk • 23:44, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Didn't Elisabeth Sladen confirm it herself in an interview? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.42.224.209 (talk) 19:15, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

David Tennant himself confirmed that he'd have Rose, Martha, Donna, Sarah Jane and Captain Jack with him at the finale when interviewed on Jonathon Ross. They joked about it being like him being surrounded by the team on 'Loose Women'. 89.241.7.169 (talk) 22:10, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Hopefully John Barrowman will confirm that when he appears on Jonathan Ross this week. Though he might be sworn to secrecy... Digifiend (talk) 08:03, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] K9

Mat Irvine informed me that K9 is also in this episode, although the character is not currently listed in the infobox (and so neither is John Leeson). I didn't want to add it myself, as I know that the episode is a while from airing yet and most of you chaps on here are very protective over adding non-confirmed information. My knowing that Mat was in Cardiff to film the scenes a couple of weeks ago will be seen by most as either word-of-mouth or just a made up rumour, so I'll leave it to someone else's discretion to add it.... Howie ☎ 22:05, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Unless there's a reliable source for it, we can't put it in. —TreasuryTag—t—c 11:22, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Nope, just have the info direct from the source through spoken word... so nothing in writing etc. Shame Howie ☎ 19:59, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Companions and Daleks

I've seen photo's from the filming of this containing daleks, sarah Jane captian Jack Rose and Martha! Can I write this in the article please.

JordanAshley (talk) 17:02, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

No, not unless you can cite a reliable source; sorry. —TreasuryTag—t—c 17:05, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Even the new trailer doesn't show Martha, Jack or Sarah! It did reveal Davros (shown emerging from a corridor) and multiple Daleks though. Digifiend (talk) 11:17, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] "also set in World War I"

As we're on the subject of "elements which cannot be confirmed", what confirmation is there for the episode being set in WW I, "also"?

This doesn't seem to fit too well with the named characters of this episode.

I may be mistaken, but I don't recall an involvement worth mentioning of troops with generals who have Spanish names - like the character of Michael Brandon, "General Sanchez" - in WW I; especially when combined with the Dempsie-character of "Klien" [in case that one were supposed to be a German name, the spelling would rather be "Klein" - the German word meaning "Little" -, anyway...].

There might be some similarities to the play "Journey's End" indeed, who knows (after all, there might be hundreds of reasons to call the final episode of a series "A Journey's End", without any relation to a play), but I really doubt that they include its setting in WW I... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.177.78.193 (talk) 12:53, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Here is a relable source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/newsid_7320000/newsid_7325700/7325783.stm Apparently we will see Rose, Martha, Donna, Sarah Jane, Jack...the list may go on! Mommytorres

Unfortunately, it doesn't source them to this episode. —TreasuryTag—t—c 19:56, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] DWM

I don't have it; what precisely is sourced in the part cited ("Baptism of fire and ice")? Who is confirmed? Are they all listed? Is anyone listed who oughtn't to be? Worth checking!! —TreasuryTag—t—c 20:19, 13 April 2008 (UTC) I have the magizine and I think t's talking about planet of the ood(Icey planet) and fires of pompeii(fire) JordanAshley (talk) 08:45, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cybermen

Okay dont delete this staight away, theres a very reliable sourse to this and i have provide the link, the cybermen were in the alternate universce that rose was traped in it is very likely for them to come back, the darleks were in series 3 Russel T Davis does not have the same monstors coming back every year also there is photos of the BBC filming with David Tenent (The Doctor), Billy Pipper (Rose) and Cybermen Costumes, A spokesman for BBC Wales confirmed that Doctor Who was being filmed at St Woolos Cemetery Were the photographs were taken. greeny087 (talk) 13:43, 20 April 2008 (GMT) References: http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/mostpopular.var.2188951.mostviewed.cybermen_invade_newport.php

And how is this relevant to this particular article? --FF 13:04, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

As there is no other episode that this could fit into on series 4, and its very likely that the last episode wil be either a 2 or 3 parter. g087 14:12, 20 April 2008 (GMT)

Unless it's a christmas special or something else, as the article itself points out. All we know is they filmed cybermen, that's all this article says. That's no enough to link it to this episode. You yourself said it could be a 3 parter, so it could just as easily be either of the two previous episodes. It's just speculation for the moment. Ged UK (talk) 13:17, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

I've seen pictures of the cybermen during gilming for the christmas special, there in thaty episode not this one.

86.160.63.137 (talk) 13:22, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

The Cybermen are for the Christmas special not series 4, series 4 has finished filming.--Wiggs (talk) 13:46, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Pics of the doc and cybermen are popping up all over the place now. Does anyone know when we are going to create the 2008 xmas special page? --Cameron (t|p|c) 17:02, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Probably at the end of series 4, when the title will be revealed. — Edokter • Talk • 18:11, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't see what it has to wait that long, the Bond films usually start with something like Bond 22 and then change the name when it's published. Ged UK (talk) 18:19, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Because, next to the title, there wouldn't be any other usefull information from reliable sources that we could put in. Voyage of the Damned didn't start getting filled until way past July. — Edokter • Talk • 18:43, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

That's a better reason! Though we have already got info on Cybermen, some stuff on filming, we know a little about who's in it (at least DT). I'm not fussed either way, just thought i'd mention it :) Ged UK (talk) 18:49, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

There are also companion rumours...but I'll leave it to you guys. Even though...it has about as much info as some of the series four articles. One could argue that they neednt have been created until nearer the time. = ) --Cameron (t|p|c) 20:04, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Davros

Photos have surfaced suggesting that Davros makes a return. Type 40 (talk) 14:57, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Photos too now? Let's have a link! --Cameron (t|p|c) 15:10, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

It was something I saw on YouTube about a month ago - video taken by a fan at a location shooting on the streets of Cardiff that had the Doctor confronted by Daleks outside the TARDIS, falling, and Rose and Sarah Jane rushing to him; also of Rose carrying a big gun. One of the shots had the lower half of a Dalek case that looked like Davros' "wheelchair" but with no one in it - suggesting a partly CGI Davros or at least a Davros prop without the actor present. Type 40 (talk) 16:54, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Hm, or it could be a headless Dalek. This is the best I can find right now though I think I saw another one that was clearer. [2] Type 40 (talk) 17:00, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Ah, here it is [3]. So your guess is as good as mine, in the first two shots is that Davros' lower half? Type 40 (talk) 17:02, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Those were simply Dalkes with their tops removed, but the mid seciotn still there... and Davros did not have a mid section. Seriously folks... true or not, we need irrefutable, solid sourced evidence before we can even mention Davros in the article. — Edokter • Talk • 19:21, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

If you search for Doctor Who Series 4 and either finale or davros you will find some interesting video about the finale. Now as far as a reliable source... http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/newsid_7320000/newsid_7325700/7325783.stm Davros WILL be in the finale! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.126.80.173 (talk) 19:34, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Not really, no. The article doesn't mention Davros or specific episode(s), so it's not reliable enough!!!!lol —TreasuryTag—t—c 19:57, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

And interpreting the "villain that had the bottom half of a Dalek, while its top half looked like it could be human" to be Davros is OR! --Cameron (T|C) 10:59, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Mentioned in today's Sun newspaper - it is indeed Davros. http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/showbiz/tv/article1209142.ece Digifiend (talk) 11:18, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

The Sun is a long way from a reliable source. ╟─TreasuryTag (talk ╬ contribs)─╢ 11:32, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Hmm. I think this Daily Mirror article proves your point. Having a sonic screwdriver doesn't make one a Time Lady! Think of Partners in Crime... http://www.mirror.co.uk/tvandfilm/tvland/ Digifiend (talk) 12:19, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Sure enough, River Song is a (future) companion, not a Time Lady. Now I see why tabloid newspapers aren't trusted. Digifiend (talk) 13:32, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Foreshadowing

Can we keep track of foreshadowing that has occurred thus far? There was a reference in one episode this year about the Doctor's journey facing an end, wasn't there? Type 40 (talk) 14:58, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, that one Ood guy said that...75.165.108.121 (talk) 23:54, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Companions

Sarah Jane and Jack I can understand, but it has been absolutely confirmed numerous times that Rose is in the last three episodes of the series, and Martha is in the last two. There is no doubt about this, and it is only right they are added to the infobox as companions. U-Mos (talk) 12:44, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Remember that this is an encyclopaedia where writing about events after the fact is okay and speed is not a priority. DonQuixote (talk) 14:01, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

I do understand that, but the length of time it has been common knowledge for really makes "speed" out of the question here. Rose, I recall, was announced as being in the last three episodes in the same press release/interview that announced that Donna would be in all 13. I'm sure someone would know where to dig to find that. And Freema Agyeman gave an interview a few months back where she confirmed her epsiodes to be 4, 5, 6, 12 and 13. This interview, to be precise. U-Mos (talk) 15:00, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

There are reliable sources confirming Jack, Sarah Jane, Rose and Martha, yes.~Zythe^{Talk to me!} 21:21, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Rose - trailer footage is indisputable proof. Martha - quote from actress, source citation needed. Sarah and Jack are unproven. What are your sources? Digifiend (talk) 12:54, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually, the Rose footage merely says that she'll appear in at least one of the six remaining episodes, and the 83% uncertainty isn't satisfactory! I'm sure she'll be in the finale but a specific source connecting her to this episode is required. ╟─TreasuryTag (talk ╬ contribs)─╢ 13:58, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Richard Dawkins

I can't post this on the main page and probably rightly so. I just thought I'd point out that this website[4] says that Richard Dawkins will be making his appearance in this episode ("guest starring"). The website itself doesn't sight sources though and the only real genuine source is Russell's interview in the Independent, which doesn't mention which episode it will be. This website [5] takes the best bit about Dawkins out of the Independent interview. It seems Dawkins is going to be playing himself/making a cameo. Some sources have him as a "guest star" and I misread the above website at first, making me think he was going to have an acting part. That made me entertain the type of fantasy that's never going to happen: Dawkins as Davros! Wouldn't that be brilliant! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.51.61.74 (talk) 11:39, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Celebs as themselves is usually in episode 12. Digifiend (talk) 12:19, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Chloe Georgeson

I would like to point out that Rose is 100% appearing in the last three episodes (Even if just by name in 'Turn Left') And I would also like to point out that it has been confirmed in various places that Rose, Jack + co, Jackie, Mickey, Martha, Donna, Jenny and Sarah-Jane are all in the last episode —Preceding unsigned comment added by Totally.doctor.who (talk • contribs) 18:41, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Where!?! Billie Piper gave an interview in Doctor Who Magazine (revealing Midnight and Turn Left plot details) and Freema Agyeman has been quoted as saying she's in episodes 12 and 13. But I don't see any mention of Jenny anywhere, and Torchwood hasn't been mentioned either, as far as we know, it's just Jack. Sarah Jane appears in all the same sources as Captain Jack, not linking to any specific episode. Strange header too. Is that your name or something? Digifiend (talk) 14:21, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Companion list

Come on guys. It took me all of five minutes to find the SFX source that confirms that Sarah Jane and Jack are in the season finale. In a source from January. Let's try to do a little work before we blindly start reverting things that are in all probability true, OK? Phil Sandifer (talk) 21:13, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

If no source is provided then the information is removed. It's policy = )...--Cameron (T|C) 14:06, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Policy does not mandate removal - we have a lovely template at Template:cn that can also be used for information that one thinks is verifiable but is not yet verified. Phil Sandifer (talk) 16:37, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

That, plus the SFX source wasn't any good, it didn't mention specific episodes. —TreasuryTag—t | c 14:07, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

"The climactic episode" pretty obviously refers to the finale. Phil Sandifer (talk) 16:37, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Do you have any sources stating so? Otherwise that assumption constitutes WP:OR. Surely the climatic episode could be any episode? Who's to say it isn't the second last episode with the last episode being to cool everything down again? = ) --Cameron (T|C) 16:53, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Such Cartesian doubt does not seem helpful. Absent some reason to believe that the fourth season of Doctor Who is going to abandon the pattern set by the first three seasons and by the arc of television series in the last decade or so, the climactic story is clearly going to be the finale. There is nothing to be gained by trying to read sources with the maximum possible skepticism. It could also be a clever and deliberate misinformation campaign on the part of the BBC to distract us from the real return, which will be a reunion of all living Doctors. However, in practice, we ought look at the clear and intended meaning - a reasonable reader will take "the climactic story" to mean what we do here - the final story in the season. Phil Sandifer (talk) 21:21, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

To be fair, Phil (if the latest comment is you...), if there wasn't an exciting climax in every episode then the ratings wouldn't be as good :-) Seriously, there are BLP issues, and it won't matter if we wait a couple of weeks for the official press-release. —TreasuryTag—t | c 20:21, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

BLP does not require radical skepticism on our part, however. It requires good faith and sensible readings of sources. A sensible reading of the SFX source says that they will appear in the final episode. Phil Sandifer (talk) 21:21, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

There's also WP:NOCOMMON... I say we wait, either for a new consensus to develop here, or for the press-release. —TreasuryTag—t | c 06:47, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

NOCOMMON is an essay, and a bloody stupid one at that. Phil Sandifer (talk) 12:49, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

As is WP:COMMON. As I said above, I say we wait, either for a new consensus to develop here, overriding the existing one (that says "climactic does not mean finale necessarily), or for the press-release. Neither will kill us. Could I also ask that you please stop simply revert-warring (it's helping no-one and setting a bad example to other users!), and accept the BRD cycle - we're now at the discussion stage. Cameron and I represent a consensus opposed to your POV. ╟─TreasuryTag (talk ╬ contribs)─╢ 13:56, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Nowhere in BLP, V, or NOR, however, does it say we must apply standards of interpretation that are wildly outside what a normal reader would apply. As for your "new consensus here" approach, you seem to be laboring under the misconception that it is possible to, through numeric strength, vote away the fact that sources say things. Phil Sandifer (talk) 14:41, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

TreasuryTag, there is no consensus here. Also, you would do well to heed your own request (i.e., you should stop reverting too). Matthew (talk) 15:57, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Both Cameron and I felt that your interpretation of the source ("climactic" meant "finale") was inappropriate; until a further consensus is generated then the numerical one must apply, unfortunately. As I said twice above (and you seem to have avoided commenting on), we could always wait for the press release, which will only be in a few short weeks and certainly won't kill anyone! ╟─TreasuryTag (talk ╬ contribs)─╢ 15:51, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

This has been solved by the addition of a source that is not open to interpretation. Matthew (talk) 15:57, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, I saw that only after editing the talkpage here. Thanks for digging that up! ╟─TreasuryTag (talk ╬ contribs)─╢ 15:59, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Question! um i know that jack harkness and sarah jane smith have been confermed, but shouldnt they be in the companion list? not in the other list. they are listed as official companions afterall. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lovingnews1989 (talk • contribs) 03:52, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Apparently, the infobox only allows 4 names. Digifiend (talk) 11:28, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

That, plus they're not necessarily companions in this episode. ╟─TreasuryTag (talk ╬ contribs)─╢ 14:30, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

For all we know, they could just be making cameo appearances (like Rose did thus far). DonQuixote (talk) 15:13, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] External link

The external link to the BBC website doesn't work, there are only pages of already broadcast episodes on the BBC website. should I remove it? General Staal (talk) 15:43, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

No. The link will work automatically as soon as the page at the BBC is up. — Edokter • Talk • 16:04, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

It currently autoforwards to the most recent episode, so at the moment it's Silence, but last week it linked to Unicorn. Thus, when it gets to Journey's End, the link will stick, and be correct. Digifiend (talk) 09:10, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Cult Times

Cult Times magazine's TV listings say that Ianto Jones and Gwen Cooper from Torchwood are in episode 12 (episode 13 is after the next issue comes out, but presumably CT has them down for that episode too). Can someone confirm this or prove them wrong? Digifiend (talk) 09:12, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

One of my sources (!) said the same thing, and also {spoiler link}, but I'm not sure how reliable the magazine is. ╟─TreasuryTag (talk ╬ contribs)─╢ 11:44, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I think your link should've pointed to {link removed - spoiler}. If Luke doesn't appear, I expect he'll still be mentioned. Digifiend (talk) 12:04, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

But we digress... ╟─TreasuryTag (talk ╬ contribs)─╢ 12:11, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Admittedly, the second half of my previous comment now makes no sense with the spoiler removed... Digifiend (talk) 09:14, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Episode 12

I know the name of episode 12! But i'm not puting it down because it is top secret. Plus I have a reliable sourse. Can I make a page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.243.46.55 (talk) 16:17, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

How can you make a page if you're refusing to tell us the name? Your source must be verifiable by the public, from a book, a magazine or an online publication, so a secret source isn't any good - anyway, we'll know the title this time next week (the Thursday press-release should give it) so we can wait 'til then. My bet is "{spoiler link - hover to see!}. ╟─TreasuryTag (talk ╬ contribs)─╢ 17:39, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

It's simple really: if you do have a reliable source, make the page. If you don't, don't. If I'm quite honest I imagine you don't. U-Mos (talk) 17:44, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Of course, IPs can't actually make new pages, but since - as you say - they don't have a verifiable reliable source (if, indeed, they even have a reliable source), the issue doesn't arise. ╟─TreasuryTag (talk ╬ contribs)─╢ 18:40, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

If it proves correct, that red link will soon turn blue. That name makes sense if you think of certain quotes from some of the prior episodes... Digifiend (talk) 09:19, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

To the original poster in this topic. You don't have to ask permission to do anything on Wikipedia. That's the point. Although this page seems to have a draconian babysitter. I suggest you look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IAR and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:OWN 71.193.243.8 (talk) 02:56, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

The spoiler link is moot, the title you suggested is mentioned on the Doctor Who series 4 talk page. Digifiend (talk) 09:02, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Well done TreasuryTag, looks like you got the title right! Digifiend (talk) 12:14, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] New Doctor Who Christmas Special Title

Hey, everyone. I'm a new guy. lol. Em.. I was on my Bebo and on a Doctor Who Series Four page, it gave the name of the 2008 Christmas Special. The title is: The Ghost in the Machine.Italic text

And someone called Rosita is involved... hmm... has anyone heard anything? I have nothing better to do with my life than find out spoilers about Doctor Who. how pathetic I am.

PleasantPeanuts (talk) 19:53, 12 June 2008 (UTC)