Talk:Joseph Franklin Rutherford

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[edit] This page is embarrassingly bad..

There are a couple instances of vandalism by both sides here. "Falso prophecies" is a bit much for the anti-crowd. A total lack of focus on commentary about his drinking problem is just as bad from the pro crowd. The misinformation in the talk page is just as bad. There was no San Francisco mansion for the returned saints, it was Beth Serim in San Diego. We're also missing a bunch of personal history. The man was married and had children, his children didn't join the movement (I'm not sure if they are sympathetic of not since histories of the movement are sparse). The article also fails to concentrate on his contributions to the organization of the movement which in many ways became what is commonly recognized as "Jehovah's Witnesses" under his watch. I'm going to try to clean up the obvious vandalism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nickjost (talk • contribs) 20:25, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

So a commentary
Early life-> I believe he only served as a substitute judge once. If someone can dig out a citation that would be nice. Again we should mention his married life and children. "Unfulfilled expectations rather than "promised dates" seems to be the prevailing attitude, past and present, and shows humility in correcting "misguided statements"" is POV and reflects the movements not histories view of the man.
Imprisonment -> Contains a reference to the completion of Studies in the Scriptures which should probably be broken out. This new section should contain information on this being one of the points that led to an eventual schism within the movement. It also alludes to the Studies as reason for the imprisonment. This is not the case. They were being held on charges stemming from the belief that they were sympathetic to the Nazis (related to their position on enlistment in armed forces) which is covered in the next few lines. I'm not sure how poor circulation could lead to a lung condition but the reason for his removal is disputed. Some believe he was moved because of developing problems with alcoholism. THIS IS NOT A VALID REASON TO INSERT THE VANDALISM ON "pass the whiskey" CHARGES. Keep it NPOV!
Death -> Citation? That seems odd. The man is wildly respected to this day. It would be bizarre in the extreme to have such a small services. Is this in reference to a graveside service? It seem very POV (that is, it implies that he was abandoned as he died).
Impact -> Saying "six years" really downplays the millions now living sermons. This line was popular well into the 80's. He also is responsible for ably managing the shock from the 1917, 1920, 1925 failures which shows almost wizardly management skills. The quotation used on "advertise the king and his kingdom" imply that the Lord's Prayer uses the word "advertise". It also uses the non-standard "model prayer" which implies that the paragraph was either written by a Witness or lifted from a Witness work. It would be helpful also to point out that both Norr and Franz were hand picked "death-bed" successors.
I am missing my reference works. If someone would pick up and fix this I'd be much obliged. The man is an incredibly interesting and dynamic individual who deserves better than the sloppy polemics from both sides shown here. Nickjost 20:50, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] IMPORTANT NOTICE

There's a lot of facts that can be put on this page that Jehovah's Witnesses don't seem to want us or the public (the ones who haven't been poisoned yet) to see. This article is no where near done.

I think it is important to get a group of people to moderate this page. Ideally, the moderation team should contain members of the JW and non-JW communities. My concern, however, is to find JW members reasonable enough to approach the article from all point-of-views.

--Bart weisser 04:35, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Changes made to the Bible

Nothing has been mentioned about the parts of the bible that rutherford changed, there are a lot of passages that he claimed were "errors". it also needs to be mentioned that there are a lot of controversies over these changes to the bible.

[edit] there needs to be secession link

[edit] Very sanitary article

No mention of his personal demons (such as drinking), relationship with wife, Beth Sarim, 1925, his forceful takeover of the Watchtower? Why is this article bereft of these facts? joshbuddy 07:15, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

J F Rutherford did not have these personal demons. He was known as a strong and disciplined person. Why would they put of opinions that are not known to anyone out there? You say facts but really they're not.

Why no mention of his directive to build a mansion in the San Fran bay area with society funds for the resurrected (moses aaron ect) that never came true, and when it never came true he moved in himself. That instance is well documented in several places. Justinmcl 199.243.211.114 02:49, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

"You say facts but really they're not". -this is basically the tactic that jehovah's witnesses use, the art of persuasion by method of confusion, consistent subject change and often the use of the word 'complex' an arbitrary number of times. I don't care what your indoctrinated, brainwashed mind thinks or what your own (yes thats right the NWT is in fact the JW's home brewed bible) bible tells you to do, you cannot change fact. This is Wikipedia, it contains facts.

Wikipedia contains facts? That's a laugh. While some of a subject may be true, you have to understand that when an article is under the editing of anyone who feels they can write something semi-logical, there are bound to be "facts" that are not the truth. You can never fully believe anything from wikipedia or most other sites, that is a fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.189.130.115 (talk) 18:38, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Declaration of Facts

I understand that Judge Rutherford wrote a sypathetic letter or a declaration of facts to the German Nazis in 1933. Should some mention of this and a link to the declaration itself be included in the article? 10 February 2007

[edit] Missing facts

Why hasn't Rutherford's death been mentioned? I can understand the complete embaressment to Jehovah's Witnesses because he died by means of excessive alcohol (which contradicts his "liquor is of satan"), but that doesn't mean it should be missed out, this article is currently biased.

May I also add that his predictions are not mentioned.

[edit] A weak article

Please, this article is weak.Such as told up, this man was a drunk.He was also linked to freemasonry , a supporter of many quacks such Albert Abrams, an eugenicist, a racist and many other terrible failures.I think that this article didn't showed even 10% of sins of this bad man.About the politic of the watchtower under nazism in Germany, also there's nothing.Until 1940 this man and his watchtower society, were suporters of eugenic sterilization.Also, he told that any follower of watchtower couldn't be vaccinated. Agre22 (talk) 22:20, 8 June 2008 (UTC)agre22

[edit] Such as Charles Taze Russell

This drunk was the second leader of Jeovah Witness cult.Such as Charles Taze Russell he was a crook.He died of alcolic cirrosis.This crook was really an eugenicist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.9.39.13 (talk) 12:04, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] One source about the link between watchtower and eugenics

The site http://www.seanet.com/~raines/homicide.html has a short text, about the support given to eugenics, by this protestant leader.The watchtower gave many support to eugenics, racism and racial segregation, during this times.This was the general rule, among all american protestant denominations.Agre22 (talk) 14:20, 9 June 2008 (UTC)agre22