Talk:Joséphine de Beauharnais

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An event in this article is a January 10 selected anniversary

Contents

[edit] Possible move

per Wiki naming convention of listing monarch's wives under their birth/maiden names; Beauharnais was the surname of her first husband Mowens35 14:38, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

  • I disagree: practically no one knows here by that name. She became a public figure as Joséphine de Beauharnais. She is almost always known either by that name or as the Empress Joséphine. -- Jmabel | Talk 06:23, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
Wiki convention says otherwise; most royal consorts were more famously known by the titles of the man/woman they married but Wiki convention is clear re article titles being by maiden name. Mowens35 10:25, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Princesses do not have a maiden name like secretaries. They are invariably known by the name of their House. Princess Caroline of Monaco is invariably known thus, not as Miss Grimaldi or Mrs Hannover. Josephine ought really to be known as Josephine de Beauharnais. But see my comment below. Tantris 21:02, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
  • But none of these naming rules are rigid. Typically, queens consort go directly from their maiden name to their title as queen consort. Joséphine was already well-known under her first married name. This should follow the same convention as for any other woman who is known mainly by one particular married name. We don't go revert them to their maiden names. -- Jmabel | Talk 16:00, Apr 27, 2005 (UTC)
if the naming rules were more rigid, there would be less arguing and more attention paid to consistency. Mowens35 23:31, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
...and more articles that were in places no reasonable person would ever think to look for them. -- Jmabel | Talk 04:47, Apr 28, 2005 (UTC)
So who precisely would know to look for Josephine de Beauharnais? Tantris 21:02, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

I am somewhat against the heading Josephine Tascher de La Pagerie. Actually, the naming convention is not straightforwardly "maiden name" but "pre-marital name". Of course it is fiddling to say that her marriage to Napoleon was the only one that mattered and thus "pre-marital" was her first husband's name (sic!), but...
I am ready to make a better exception re this person, and allow her the heading Empress Josephine. (If we are to make exceptions, why not then select the best one of them.) 217.140.193.123 2 July 2005 09:08 (UTC)


  • NOBODY knows Josephine as anything other than Josephine, and nobody will know to look for Joséphine de Beauharnais, especially not with that silly accent. This is an English-language encyclopedia, and so both Napoleon and Josephine lose the accent their names sport in French.

This article should be under Josephine (Empress).

Tantris 20:40, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Misc

Why did you call repeating her file name as Wikifying?

For what it's worth, the uncommented anon removal of the reference to Stéphanie de Beauharnais as Joséphine's daughter appears to be correct. See [1] (in German). -- Jmabel 06:28, Sep 12, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] sources?

Olivier, thanks for the recent additions; could you indicate your sources? -- Jmabel 18:44, Sep 30, 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Monaco and egon von Furstenberg

Question to Mowens35: On what do you base your claim that empress Josephine is ancestress of current house of Monaco and of Egon von F. ???
I have seen much of your imaginary ideas to deluge truthful information here in Wikipedia - apparently motivated by so-called royal-romantics and sycophancy instead of factual correctness. 217.140.193.123 2 July 2005 09:17 (UTC)

I base my information on published materials, which I strenuously work to cite. If, however, that information later deemed incorrect, I delete it. 'Nuff said.Mowens35 15:20, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Soapy sentimentality

Wow, this sort of soppy soap-operatic stuff seriously needs to be sourced or purged, probably the latter:

This could be due either to the fact that he lost them, or that she did not write very many. Whatever the case, his words were undoubtedly more full of passion. Joséphine, less in love than Napoleon, actually began an affair with high society playboy Hippolyte Charles in 1796. This so infuriated and hurt Napoleon that his deep, loyal love changed entirely.

--Saforrest 01:57, 9 March 2006 (UTC)

Just wait until I add the translation of a letter from Napoleon to Josephine about his wanting to "be inside you"!!! That one's quoted in Evangeline Bruce's book "The Improbable Marriage", which has the most amazing translations of his lusty letters to J. Mowens35 15:23, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Slave plantation??

rather POV, no? surely it was a plantation for a specific economic purpose (sugar, etc) which was cultivated by slaves, which is different than a "slave plantation" Mowens35 16:35, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Sugar cane, I believe (though I'm not sure) but what became politically relevant was slaves, rather than a particular crop: Joséphine was firmly on the side of the planter aristocracy in terms of the slave rebellion in what became Haiti. - Jmabel | Talk 19:36, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Yes but Wiki is not to judge actions of the past through today's prism. It is enough to state the information as carefully as possible, hence "a sugar plantation worked by slaves" as opposed to a "slave plantation", which is not only factually incorrect but also redundant.Mowens35 15:21, 3 September 2006 (UTC)
That wording is fine with me, but this is not a matter of "today's prism". The question of slavery in the French Caribbean was a very lively issue during the years of the Revolution. The question of sugar? Not. - Jmabel | Talk 02:22, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
However, with subsequent changes this has gone too far the other way. There is now no mention of her coming from a slaveowning family. Again, in the context of Revolutionary France this was no small matter. - Jmabel | Talk 04:20, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
We seem to be back to what was agreed upon. - Jmabel | Talk 02:00, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Monaco

[2]: uncommented removal of claim that she is ancestor of the royal house of Monaco (by an editor who is clearly not a vandal). Was it false? Or what? - Jmabel | Talk 00:00, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I see. It was removed by the same person who added it, and someone had raised doubts on the talk page. Hey, folks, when you do stuff like this, could you please use edit summaries? - Jmabel | Talk 00:02, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Would people please cite?

"first cousin once removed of Mahmud II, 27th Sultan of Turkey". Maybe. I have no idea. But presumably, if it's true, you didn't just happen to know it. Please provide a citation for this sort of thing. - Jmabel | Talk 02:24, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Now removed. - Jmabel | Talk 19:10, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
I removed it a couple of days ago, after reading a scholarly history of Josephine's first cousin, Aimée du Buc de Rivery, who is written of frequently as the mother of Mahmud II. Recent scholarly investigation has determined, beyond any doubt, that though she was a member of the Turkish royal harem, she was not Mahmud's mother.Mowens35 22:04, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Odd removal

The anonymous "copy edit" recently was far more than that. I've restored a couple of things. Others may want to check.

I'm particularly surprised by the removal of the following: is there a factual problem with it? "The divorce took place on January 10, 1810, and was a grand but solemn ceremony for both lovers. It was the first under the Napoleonic Code." Other than the dubious phrase "for both lovers", this seems to me to be entirely relevant, if true. Is it not true? - Jmabel | Talk 05:41, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Contradiction?

In this article it is suggested that Josephine only had one affair during her marriage to Napoleon, but in the Napoleon article it is stated that both were known to have had many. Which is it?

According to numerous books, she had more than one affair during her marriage to Napoleon, particularly in the early years of their marriage.Mowens35 23:23, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Yeah, I think it's been pretty much established that she was not very faithful to him early on. She seems to have become committed to him later in the marriage, though. Funnyhat 19:36, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Josephine's Title

Absurdly, Josephine, Marie Louise and Eugenie were included in the list of "Queen Consorts of France" (what in correct grammar ought to be called Queens-Consort, by-the-by...)

All three bore the title of Empress of the French and none was ever Queen of France, consort or otherwise. I have accordingly removed them from the list.

Tantris 20:40, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Natural" daughter?

The article makes a passing reference to Josephine's "natural" daughter. Generally this term is used in this way as a euphemism for "illegitimate", but there's no mention of such a child in the article and it seems staggeringly unlikely to me that she would have one. If it refers to Hortense de Beauharnais, then the term is used incorrectly. --Jfruh (talk) 00:36, 10 January 2007 (UTC) I once read in a bio on Josephine that a girl from Martinique came to France and was put under Josephine's protection.Author opines that she could have been the natural daughter of Josephine from an affair she had with a Scots captain while she visited Martinique with her children.Author also speculates that this final pregnancy could have rendered her incapable of having more children due to complications during childbirth.At any rate,a mysterious Scotsman did attend her funeral.jeanne (talk) 07:02, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] david painting mis-captioned

the david painting of the coronation of napoleon does not show him coronating josephine. rather, it depicts him coronating *himself* as the catholic clergy looks on. napoleon did so to show the sovereignty and authority of the french state -- above that of the vatican. but a more simple proof can be offered: josephine is already wearing a crown in the painting. i am changing the caption accordingly.

The coronation painting is of napoleon crowning josephine, not of him crowning himself. The fact that josehine is already wearing a crown does not mean that napoleon is crowning himself. After all, napoleon's mother is in the full painting, yet she wasn't actually at the ceremony. -roxie11 =Great-grandfather=I have read in many bios that her maternal great-grandfather George Browne was Irish; yet in the article he is listed as English.Could he possibly have been Anglo-Irish?jeanne (talk) 15:30, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Misquote

The famous last words of Napoléon I where made up by Charles Tristan de Montholon. He has turned out to be a frequent liar. Napoléon died at about the time of sunset after being unconscious for at least 14 hours. At the time the famous last words was said to have been uttered no-one else could hear any words. They heard a sound coming from his moth but it was more like a music instrument than a human voice. Today it is thought to have been due to gases from an over-pressurised stomach escaping though his throat. Consequentially, there was no intention behind it. Most likely the last thing he said before he died was:

“Give me my chamber-pot.”

It may not have been very polite but that was what he said. His last words must have been uttered I French since all the three or four men who nursed him where French-spoken. They where his favourite personal servant Louis Joseph Marchand, Charles Tristan de Montholon and Henri Gratien Bertrand. The possible forth person was Étienne “Ali” Saint-Dennis who was also a personal servant. Napoléon had a third personal servant named Jean Abram Noverraz. During the last six weeks he could not nurse Napoléon since he was ill himself. He barely recovered enough in time to bid farewell to his dying ruler. By then Napoléon was already unconscious.

2008-05-23 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.233.151.44 (talk) 11:39, 23 May 2008 (UTC)