Talk:José Reyes

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By reading you would think Reyes is the second comming of Ricky Henderson. He is in reality a poor leadoff hitter who doesn't know how to get on base.

Untrue... not to mention that one of your links just links to the other link. This does not rave about Reyes. From my standpoint, why does it matter what the people who don't like him say? Because I could rave on and on about Fran Healy's ranting and raving about how Reyes is the most exciting player in baseball. So rather than throw in negative viewpoints about him, why not keep it neutral, following in the supposed NPOV vein of wikipedia. Moreover, why don't we just put a section in there about all the people that love Reyes? I bet Steve Phillips has a lot of great things to say about him as does Omar Minaya. Maybe his girlfriend could add some insightful commentary about what a great leadoff hitter he is. Zookman12 00:35, 25 December 2005 (UTC)

This article is not neutral. Let me give some examples of pro-Reyes bias:

1.) "Reyes is a slick-fielding"

This is a subjective assessment stated as fact and many people would disagree with this statement considering his low fielding percentage and high amount of errors. The truth is by any quantitative measurement (errors, fielding percentage) he is a poor fielder. On what basis do you make this judgment? This is opinion stated as fact.

2.)"Reyes bounced back with a healthy and productive 2005 season"

We can debate whether a .300 on-base percentage for leadoff hitter is productive. Most people would call it unproductive. But the bottom line is that whether or not it is productive is something that is debatable so should not be stated as fact.

3.) "a 17-game hitting streak, longest by a National League rookie"

I feel if you want to have a balance article you should also mention Reyes' other notable streak, his 118 at-bats to start of the 2005 season with out a walk.

In conclusion this article:

1.) States opinions as facts

2.) By only commenting on positive statistics it doesn’t present a balanced view on Jose Reyes.

Thank You.

Redman1936 00:04, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

If you want a view a balanced article on a athlete look at J.J._Redick. I am UCONN fan so I hate Redick but I have to admit it is balanced. The author does not state his opinion as fact he states what other people think of Redick. For example it states, "Basketball pundits often cite his jump shot as having 'textbook form.'" Notice the author doesn't say redick has textbok form but experts say he does. The article is balanced and gives the viewpoints of his critics, unlike yours, "Redick was also criticized for his poor defense and ball-handling" You have no idea what it means to be objective. So in answer to your question, "why does it matter what the people who don't like him say?" If you want to be neutral, fair, and objective it is imperative to give both sides.

Redman1936 00:14, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm, I read this and don't have any problem with it, including the criticisms that were added.

1. 1. I don't think "slick-fielding" has any relation to errors. Just look at Ozzie Smith - he averaged 16 errors per season from 1978-93 (and higher for shorter spans) and I don't think anyone would refute that he was a slick fielder. And Ozzie's article here is filled with such unverifiable-except-by-"experts" references to his fielding. Sorry there's no stats for slick fielding. Pundits used to write off Ozzie's high error count to the fact that he got to so many more ground balls than anyone else could. I'll buy that with Ozzie - why not with Reyes?
   2. "Healthy" and "productive" in 2005. He was obviously healthy since he played in 161 games and had 17 more at bats than anyone else in the majors (I know - he never walked - but you get my point). Productive? He led the entire majors in triples, the N.L. in stolen bases and was in the top 5 in singles and hits in the N.L. How can that possibly be considered unproductive? The low OBP and SLG keep it from being fantastic but you have to admit to at least productive, don't you? That's not even saying he was average - just productive. And all this from a 22-year-old. No, he's not the second coming of Rickey, but his supposedly atrocious OBP is only 34 points lower than Ozzie's and Ozzie's in the HOF (and Reyes' SLG is far higher than Ozzie's).
   3. Mention about his streak of AB's sans BB? It's already in there.

In short, I'm not sure what else you're looking for here. You want an "expert" to say he's a slick fielder? I'm sure someone can find an article.

--wknight94 00:54, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Oh wait, the SI article referenced below the criticism paragraph already "declares" him a slick fielder. Is that expert enough? I'm tempted to remove the "poor defensive" part of the criticism for the same reason as Redman1936 is mentioning - I haven't found a single "expert" that mentions him being poor defensively. Like I said, a high error count can actually mean you're a fantastic shortstop - esp. if you have the speed to get to groundballs like Reyes has. --wknight94 01:32, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Well put-- don't forget that Derek Jeter once had an output of 57 errors in a minor league season and nobody uses that to counteract his gold glove(s?) at shortstop. Zookman12 03:04, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I ran some numbers to be more official: Among the 16 NL shortstops with at least 400 chances (one for each of the NL teams), Reyes had the most errors and ranked 12th in fielding %, 6th in SLG, 11th in OBP (not so bad with all the negative OBP talk), 7th in BA, 2nd in hits, 3rd in runs scored, 5th in RBI, 10th in walks, t-6th most strikeouts and 1st in games played, at bats, triples and stolen bases. --wknight94 05:17, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

So considering his past season or two, you can't exactly call this one unhealthy and unproductive. Zookman12 14:35, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Contents 1 DAB Page? 2 Overall, what do you think of Jose? 3 I found a source for the Professor Reyes thing 4 Why Do We Take the Personality and Uniqueness Out of This Article? 5 Weasel words

[edit] DAB Page?

Wouldnt a dismbiguation page help, considering there is a footballer (soccer player) by the name of Jose Antonio Reyes who is well known, also known in more countries? and only typing "jose antonio reyes" takes the user to the page —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.121.151.178 (talk • contribs) .

Sounds fine to me. I'm taking your word for the fact that he's as well-known in the English-speaking world as this Jose Reyes... —Wknight94 (talk) 19:23, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

yes he is known in the english speaking world, he plays for the London club Arsenal who are among the biggest clubs in football. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.121.151.178 (talk • contribs) .

Fine by me. Anyone else have a vote? By the way, 213.121.151.178, you should sign your talk messages with ~~~~. See WP:SIG. —Wknight94 (talk) 17:54, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I concur. DAB it is. --DNL 23:11, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Overall, what do you think of Jose?

He is a great player, especially with his special red bats!--Divya da animal lvr 20:51, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Jose Reyes, along with David Wright, are two of the most exciting young players in the game. I'm very impressed with his glove at shortstop. His glovework alone makes him a very valuable player for the Mets. In addition, he is the fastest player I've never witnessed going from 1st to 3rd. As Jose has some gap power, his ability to hit triples will (I believe) be record setting. His ability to steal bases leaves pitchers ruffled, and helps generate pressure. He is becoming a better, more disciplined hitter at the plate. I believe his career numbers will be similar to those of Willie Wilson, the longtime KC Royal. I believe his radiant smile uplifts both his fans and his other team mates. He is a very special player and Mets fans will need to be patient with him as he develops into an all star! Mikewelch7 18:39, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Wilson never had a season with over 50 RBIs, only had 41 career home runs, and only had two seasons of at least 100 runs scored. Reyes already has 35 HR in 462 games, an 80 RBI and 58 RBI season, and a 99 and 122 run season and he's only 23. So I disagree with the Willie Wilson comparison. Yeah they both steal bases and hit triples but there's tons of other guys that did it too.

[edit] I found a source for the Professor Reyes thing

This article at Mets.com seems pretty reliable and it mentions that "Professor Reyes" thing -- I don't know how to make that a citation on the main page but if someone wants to do the edit, here's the link.

http://newyork.mets.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060508&content_id=1443614&vkey=news_nym&fext=.jsp&c_id=nym

Hope that's helpful.

[edit] Why Do We Take the Personality and Uniqueness Out of This Article?

I know to some it seems the "Jose chant" or Reyes dances are "unencyclopedic", but I completely disagree. Encyclopedic doesn't require the fact to be accompanied by a number or quote. These facts about Reyes are what makes him unique - what makes his page unique. If someone wants to know how many SB's he has, they can check bb-ref.com. But this is where we have to document the things that makes Reyes unique.

And again, the fact the fans chant "Jose" when he comes up isn't speculation or fictitious, it is a fact. That chant has been chanted for the better part of two seasons. The "Dar-ryl" chant is on his page. Don't think encyclopedic requires data. Stories are encyclopedia as well.Ags412 16:23, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Everything requires verification. Read WP:V which is an official policy. Anything without a source can be removed without discussion. Just provide a reliable source and I'd leave it alone. I will still note though that hundreds of players have favorite little chants from fans - are we supposed to list each one in every baseball bio article? How about "fans often chant 'Boone' but it sounds like 'boo'"? Sure, it's true but who cares? —Wknight94 (talk) 17:31, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

LOL, you and 142.157.65.0 (talk · contribs) can't even agree on what the chant is! Is it Jose, Jose or Jose ole ole, or Jose olay ole, ... That's one of the reasons WP:V exists in the first place... —Wknight94 (talk) 17:33, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

How's this for verification? [1] Evidently they know the chant half-way around the world! SERSeanCrane 21:31, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

I'll verify it as a fan in the seats at a game that the chant is "jose jose jose jose...jose...jose....(repeats)..." (unless im deaf and or stupid thats what we yell at shea in the stands) swear on my life! Eleigh33 21:13, 1 March 2007 (UTC)

You are all wrong... it is both. The chant originally began as "José, ole ole ole." However, as more fans heard the chant on TV (as opposed to at the game), the chant started to be misunderstood and quickly became "José, José José José." It is a combination of both.

Whatever. The chant is more significant to Reyes vs. someone like Boone because a) It's unique to Reyes and no one else in baseball or any of the four other American sports, unless someone bit it, which would be obvious by now it would be bitten off Reyes (fans sounds like they're booing any schmuck named Booxxx so it's pointless and rabid over every sport), b) it wasn't made up by the Mets PR; fans actually started chanting it before the corny speaker insertion came on and it became a craze at the games, and c) there's video evidence all over the internet, do you really need someone with a Phd to write an article for you to confirm this? Please.

Whatever the case with the chant, it seems the José, José José José version has become the accepted one now, and the Mets site is even selling a Jose Jose Jose Pack: http://newyork.mets.mlb.com/nym/ticketing/packs_seven.jsp#jose

[edit] Weasel words

Someone has to take care of all the weasel words that exist throughout this article or I'm going to have to tag this article with a POV and weasel tag. See WP:WEASEL.--Jersey Devil 00:09, 20 October 2006 (UTC)