Talk:John of Scotland

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While he is usually known as John Balliol, some historians consider this unfair, implying that he was a usurper. More to the point, John of Scotland is in accordance with wikipedia conventions on naming of monarchs. PatGallacher 2005 July 9 10:27 (UTC)

Contents 1 Toom Tabard 2 The Auld Alliance 3 Place of Birth 4 "Here Another Version" 5 "His Own father!"

[edit] Toom Tabard

Toom Tabard "empty garment" although usually described as meaning a "puppet", may refer to the fact that during King John's humiliation by King Edward, his tabard, or surcoat, would have been stripped of insignia, therefore being literally an "empty garment".

[edit] The Auld Alliance

John did not 'finally stand up for himself' in the alliance with France. The direction of affairs was taken from his hands in July 1295 by a council of twelve-made up equally of earls, barrons and churchmen. It was this council that went on to conclude what was to become known as the Auld alliance. Rcpaterson 08:14, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Some more minor edits. John was not known as Toom Tabard during his reign. It comes from the ceremony at Brechin where the royal arms were torn from his coat. It literally means 'empty coat', but has over time acquired layers of additional meaning-'vacant' and 'ineffectual' are probably closer to the point than 'puppet'. Rcpaterson 02:49, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Place of Birth

I was always led to believe that John Baliol was born at Buittle see [1] Brendandh 12:55, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

I suggested he was probably born at Barnard Castle where, according to numerous records, his parents spent much of their time and was his father's principal seat in Britain. In normal circumstances that would have made most sense. This was only a suggestion based upon, as I have said, the most likely probability. I was pounced upon and a revert was carried out upon my edits accordingly. When does one opinion become superior to anothers? It is this sort of conduct on Wikipedia which has dramatically slowed my contributions. I just cannot be bothered with it. David Lauder 16:58, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

David, you're the only one trying to make "one opinion superior to the others". If you are to be believed, your Victorian source thinks Barnwell is a possibility, whereas modern sources think Picardy or Galloway. Seems to me the current version making it clear that his birth is unknown but suggesting three possibilities is fair. No? BTW, it was Derborgaill ingen Ailin who had the baby, not John de Balliol, so her locational preferences (Galloway very much) would be most important than any John's, though she did travel about too. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 17:38, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

There is no substantive evidence to demonstrate that Victorian scholars were not as industrious and careful as modern scholars (although everyone in any century is bound to make the occasional error), with great access to the bulk of the ancient records, as is demonstrated by the endless volumes of transcriptions available today. Your continued denigration of many great scholars in preference for those twentieth century writers who play a tune more in keeping with the gaelic/ultra-nationalist line you seem to be pushing does you and Wikipedia no credit. David Lauder 07:48, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

Lauder, darling, I know you have a warped perception of reality ... but I think in this instance, there's little reason to bring such ignorant paranoia into the equation, since the topic of John's birthplace is not really impinged by any "Gaelic/ultra-nationalist" line, which isn't a feature of any modern scholarship anyways. If by the latter you're referring to a tendency to gives Gaels the Gaelic forms of their names, well this is just a feature of modern historiography in general where modern historians do tend to give people the form of their name according to their national or cultural background, hence all those Władysławs instead of, as in your day, Ladislaus. I doubt that non-Scots such as David Dumville, Thomas Owen Clancy, James Fraser can really be accused of Gaelic nationalism. Creating such fantasies will not help you on wikipedia, but just make you look like a paranoid nut-case. That's how it'll make you look mind, not what I think of you. Anyways, Victorian scholars and 19th cent. scholars can indeed be good (they had far more time to write than moderns) when you know how to use them and which ones to use, but I know from experiencing your edits that you do not. These scholars used on their own simply are not of equal worth ... they are at the early stage of scholarly debates which have moved on considerably since they were writing; venerating them like you do is almost equivalent to learning science from science books of the same period, and then claiming everything after is "rewriting" or "Revision". Not the best way. There are some Amish communities in the USA though who'd respect this position, but I'm not sure too many users here would. Regards, Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 08:17, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

We British say Munich, not Munchen, Rome, not Roma, etc. Poles say Jerzy, not George. We have always written in our language with our spellings. If you are a PC American you might not understand us. I don't think there is a comparison between the sciences and the recording and interpretation of history. There is nothing wrong with my understanding of history. I was probably studying these volumes when you were still in nappies. But when we have a Queen of Malcolm Canmore and successive monarchs thereafter constantly anglicising as much as they could I don't try and rewrite history by suggesting that Gaelic was still widely used into the 15th century and I don't insist that all and sundry, after 800 years of history books citing their names otherwise, be slapped in the face with gaelic names which no-one recognises. Unfortunately you are one of those people who feel that the modern generation and their opinions are just so superior to all those who came before us. I don't. I am not attempting to rewrite history, just to make it more widely accessible. David Lauder 10:01, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Here Another Version"

This portion seems unencyclopaedic. I suggest it be deleted. 50n0m4 01:53, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Well spotted. Quite right. Angus McLellan (Talk) 02:17, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "His Own father!"

According to the article he is his own father! --81.158.232.65 (talk) 16:27, 23 April 2008 (UTC)