Talk:John Brown's Body

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John Brown wasn't the dead deputy in Bob Marley's "I Shot the Sheriff".

John Brown's Body is also a ska/reggae/jam band.

Actually (not that it has anything to do with this article) John Brown was the sheriff, as in "Sheriff John Brown always hated me." 151.205.184.111 14:49, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] I rock

Previous poster: just make a disambiguation page.

I moved this to Wikisource! I Rock!

[edit] Mark Steyn Link

This link doesn't seem to say anything about this song so I have removed it. If anyone knows where the link should point can they put it back?

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Sijarvis (talk • contribs) 09:46, 30 August 2006 (UTC)


Steyn's website used to be updated weekly or thereabouts with different content at the same URLs. (I loathe websites that do that.) However, his website has been redesigned and now has stable URLs. Furthermore, he's recently posted the article about this song, so I've linked to it at the new URL (while doing a larger edit). Cheers, CWC 16:01, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Missing verses?

So there is a version with one fully worked out verse, like so:

He captured Harper's Ferry with his nineteen men so true, / And he frightened old Virginia till she trembled through and through, / They hung him for a traitor, themselves the traitor crew, / But his soul is marching on!

but the rest of the verses are one liners? This is disappointing, I had encountered the worked out verse in a John Buchan book years ago and thought I had a good idea of what some of the other worked out verses were likely to be. And still, I have to say that a single worked out verse is unlikely, I would still bet that the version given on the site is a degenerated version of a worked out song. I would imagine one verse went something like:

It was down in bloody Kansas where the slavers rode abroad
 He was called to be a soldier in the army of the Lord
He smote their haughty power with his terrible quick sword
And his soul goes marching on.

Similarly "grave" rhymes with "brave" and "slave"; a fully worked out first verse almost writes itself. If that is obvious to me I doubt it was any less obvious in the 1860s, when verse writing was much more common. I think there must be a lost fully worked out abolitiionist version, probably the original version, revisionist theories about the good-natured Sergeant Brown notwithstanding.
They hanged John Brown from a sour apple tree
 As they hanged the Liberator long ago at Calvary
He died a holy martyr so that all men would be free
And his soul goes marching on!

To a Christian hanging immediately suggests the Crucifixion especially hanging from a tree, the cross has been described as a "tree" since the Middle Ages; and if the Christion happens to be also a verse-maker then "hanged from a tree" brings "Calvary" to mind almost automatically, its a good strong rhyme. Like "free", also a natural assocaition in the context. Oh no, I do not think we should be misled by Sergeant Brown. he is a distraction of the nature of "Ned Ludd" Surely, it must have been something like that. Jeremy (talk) 08:32, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Revisionism Overempahsised

I'm very unhappy about this page. The revisionist view, on the face of it ridiculous, is given far too much emphasis. Some fact tag are needed. I don't know what tag one puts up for "worthless citation" but I think a few of those are also needed. Jeremy (talk) 09:21, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Not missing verses after all, and revisionist argument clarified

The full William Weston Patton song from http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/johnbrown/brownbody.html: John Brown by William W. Patton

Old John Brown’s body lies moldering in the grave, While weep the sons of bondage whom he ventured all to save; But tho he lost his life while struggling for the slave, His soul is marching on.

John Brown was a hero, undaunted, true and brave,/ And Kansas knows his valor when he fought her rights to save;/ Now, tho the grass grows green above his grave,/ His soul is marching on.

He captured Harper’s Ferry, with his nineteen men so few,/ And frightened "Old Virginny" till she trembled thru and thru;/ They hung him for a traitor, themselves the traitor crew,/ But his soul is marching on.

John Brown was John the Baptist of the Christ we are to see,/ Christ who of the bondmen shall the Liberator be,/ And soon thruout the Sunny South the slaves shall all be free,/ For his soul is marching on.

The conflict that he heralded he looks from heaven to view,/ On the army of the Union with its flag red, white and blue./ And heaven shall ring with anthems o’er the deed they mean to do,/ For his soul is marching on.

Ye soldiers of Freedom, then strike, while strike ye may,/ The death blow of oppression in a better time and way,/ For the dawn of old John Brown has brightened into day,/ And his soul is marching on.

I think this song, written October 1861 and published December 1861, should be included on the site. The site I took this from (UMKC School of Law) also gives a simpler version of the song, and links to a pbs site on the history of the song which makes clear that the original teasing of Seageant Brown was indeed about sharing the same name as the abolitionist; the original song was thus by this account at least just as much about the abolitionist as Sergeant Brown. And it is still not clear whether or not the song was pre-existing as commonsense would suggest. Jeremy (talk) 00:31, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Thomas Bishop

In the The Battle Hymn of the Republic article the song is credited to one Thomas Bishop. Who was this Thomas Bishop? See the following site which asserts that Bishop wrote about the abolitionist, sadly doesn't give his original words: http://www.providenceforum.org/default.aspx?pid=24

"History of the Battle Hymn of the Republic

In Charleston, South Carolina in 1853 a preacher, William Steffe, wrote a hymn, a camp meeting song evangelists called a “good shouter”. It went: “Say brothers will you meet us on Canaan’s happy shore. To watch the Jordan roar.” The melody caught on but the words didn’t. Sailors and soldiers made up their own words to the tune, upsetting Steffe. He had been trying to glorify God in his song and others turned it into a distasteful bar song. He thought himself, and his labor for the Lord, a failure.

Then, a visitor from Vermont, Thomas Bishop picked up the tune while visiting the South. He returned to the North to join an infantry battalion stationed in Boston Harbor, Massachusetts. Soon after, abolitionist John Brown made his attack on Harper’s Ferry in 1859. Bishop decided to dramatize that event in song. He put together a marching song for the Tiger Battalion to the tune Steffe created: “John Brown’s body lies a moulderin’ in the grave. But his soul goes marching on.” Steffe would not have liked it – a Northerner using a melody written by a Southerner to arouse the anti-slave camps in the North....."

etc. This account has its own problems and doesn't immediately strke one as scholarly, but it also doesn't seem to be based on nothing. 203.87.64.23 (talk) 04:16, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] =Credible story of how Thomas Brigham Bishop wrote John Brown- source Time 1 July 1935

I found the following in the Time archive: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,770050,00.html?iid=chix-sphere

It seems to be the true story (it give publishing details of Bishop's song) and also contains the checkable claim that Bishop wote "When Johnny Comes Marching Home". It doesn't cedit Steffe, I'd guess that Bishop's tune was close enough to Steffe's to be assimilated. But that's just a guess. But hey, so much for the revisionist nonsense.. Of course no reason to doubt that the boys did give good-natured Sergeant Brown a hard time.... Jeremy (talk) 02:50, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

From the Time article:

"Three-quarters of a century ago in Portland. Maine, a fierce form of religious fervor overtook a hardshelled Yankee named Andrew J. Johnson. Seeking out his young brother-in-law, Johnson accused him of writing songs in league with the Devil and, thrusting out his self-righteous chest, shouted: "I am bound to be a soldier in the army of the Lord! Glory! glory, Hallelujah!" Thomas Brigham Bishop, a farm-boy from the village of Wayne, jokingly set his brother-in-law's tirade to music. As popular as any popular song, Glory, Glory, Hallelujah was sung a few evenings later by Andrew Johnson, soon became the big camp-meeting hymn throughout the State of Maine.

When John Brown was hanged at Charles Town in 1859 for his Harper's Ferry raid, Thomas Brigham Bishop happened to be in nearby Martinsburg. Taking paper & pencil he dashed off the crude verses of John Brown's Body Lies a-Mould' ring in the Grave, set them to the music of his Glory, Glory, Hallelujah. The song was published by John Church of Cincinnati in 1861. Union soldiers, at the outbreak of the Civil War, picked it up as a marching song, added the "Jeff Davis" verse, carried it to Washington. There in 1862 after a great review across the Potomac Julia Ward Howe heard the Federal troopers singing it. Early the next morning, with John Brown's Body running through her mind, she wrote the words of The Battle Hymn of the Republic to Bishop's tune.

Despite the fact that he provided the music for one of the patriotic anthems of all time, the name of Thomas Brigham Bishop has been practically forgotten in the annals of U. S. music. To see that he gets his just due from history is the purpose of an elderly New Yorker named John James MacIntyre, now a publicity man for the Cunard White Star Line, once a struggling songwriter and publisher whom Bishop befriended. This week marks the 100th anniversary of Thomas Bishop's birth. Loyal John MacIntyre refused to let the occasion pass without telling his friend's life-story:

"Down East" in the 1850's the budding songwriter was regarded as a rapscallion. When he might have been brooding over crops, he was strumming a mandolin, playing at country dances, barnstorming in minstrel shows. During the Civil War he commanded a Negro detachment called Company G. One day he heard a dusky private muttering, "Shoo, fly, don't bother me." Thereupon Bishop wrote another song which every soldier sang:

Shoo, fly, don't bother me

I belong to Company G. . . .

After the war the songwriter from Maine plugged on at music. He wrote When Johnny Comes Marching Home, Sweet Evalina, If Your Foot Is Pretty, Show It. He toured for a time as cornetist in Pat Gilmore's Band. Then, when middleaged, his Yankee blood asserted itself and he turned to banking." ....etc

[edit] Bhugh's Rewrite

....has immeasurably improved this article. Its still not quite on the money however. If you look at the Library of Congress early manuscripts of the lyrics you will see that they are all close variants, one proudly claims to be the "original" and the others including the only dated one (1861) agree with it apart from small details. This does not agree with situation of free variation and diffuse composition presently described by the article. The "Jeff Davis" verse is said by MacIntyre to be a later addition (and the same would presumably go for the 3 cheers verse), and what is left is consistent as a single conception, ie John Brown has just died and is marching to heaven, to join the heavenly host and become a "soldier in the army of the lord". Consider the "pet lambs" verse, it belongs to this context. A merry funeral song. And this is consistent with the song being written in 1859 when Brown was hanged. And the article at once identifies the Brown tune with the Canaan tune and points out their substantial difference. Can't have it both ways here. I still reckon the Bishop theory is looking good. Jeremy (talk) 01:33, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

You can read George Kimball's article here and Annie Randall's here. If you read those, perhaps along with some of the referenced articles in Randall's article, you'll start to have a better idea of the milieu we're talking about here and many of your questions will be answered. You bring up a lot of good points and if the article addresses and explains those issues it will undoubtedly be improved.
On the flip side, I'm concerned about accepting the claims about Bishop wholeheartedly, because there do not seem to be any primary documents from anywhere close to the time of the song's composition. They all seem to be 2nd or 3rd hand and from 50 years or more after the song was written. As Kimball explains (p. 376) all sorts of people stepped forward later on to claim credit and priority. To advance beyond a mere claim, you really need to have first-hand documentary evidence, not merely a claim that has been repeated in various media outlets many years after the fact.
If documentation can be located and included in the article notes then that changes things dramatically. But so far the documentation for the claims made on behalf of Bishop is weak and those claims are not well substantiated at all. Bhugh (talk) 04:24, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
"And the article at once identifies the Brown tune with the Canaan tune and points out their substantial difference. Can't have it both ways here." Quite the contrary, no musicologist would say that a slight rhythmic variation to a melody made in order to fit in some extra syllables, makes it a "different melody". The most you could possibly say is that it is a simple rhythmic variation of the same melody. One of the neat things about the evolution of the "Glory Hallelujah" tune is that you can see this process at work as you go from the very simple words of "Say, Brothers" through the initial John Brown words, through some of the more complex words. Each succeeding step adds a few more of those dotted rhythms in order to add in a few more syllables (culminating in the Battle Hymn of the Republic, where pretty much every rhythm has become dotted in order to cram the maximum possible syllables into each line). But throughout all this, the melodic profile remains amazingly unchanged--the same note comes at the same place on the same beat. The chorus, of course, remains essentially unchanged in all of these versions, so the interesting effect you arrive at in the Battle Hymn is that the verse and the chorus both have the "same" melody, just with that simple rhythmic variation to allow for the greater/lesser number of words per line in verse vs. chorus. Bhugh (talk) 05:13, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

"If you look at the Library of Congress early manuscripts of the lyrics" --Can you help me out with where you're searching & what search terms at the LOC? Or a link to the some of the interesting results? I'm not finding much there that is helpful, but what you're finding sounds quite interesting . . . 68.92.155.114 (talk) 14:24, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I used the "Search All Collections" option taking me to http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/browse/ and use John Brown Song and also John Brown's Body (without bracketing)for search terms. I get (all with same lyrics or near enough):

the (undated) version currently referenced on the page: John Brown's original marching song. Tune--Brothers, will you meet me. Johnson, Song Publisher, &c., Phila. [n. d.]IMPRINT Philadelphia, Pennsylvania: J. H. Johnson RELATED NAME(S) Publisher: J. H. Johnson SHELF LOCATION Civil War Song Sheets, Series 1, Volume 2

the only dated one, I think, a version mentioned by Kimball in his account: John Brown. Origin, Fort Warren. Music arranged by C. B. Marsh. Published by C. S. Hall, 256 Main Street, Charleston, Mass. Entered, according to the act of Congress. in the year 1861, By C. S. Hall, in the Clerk's office of the District Court of the District of Massachusetts. Marsh, C. B. IMPRINT Charlestown, Massachusetts: C. S. Hall, 1861 RELATED NAME(S) Publisher: C. S. Hall SHELF LOCATION American Song Sheets, Series 1, Volume 5

one of the undated ones but apaprently contemporary: Glory hally, hallelujah! or The John Brown song! Hip, hip, hip hurrah! ! Published by Horace Partridge, No. 27 Hanover Street, Boston. [n. d.]IMPRINT Horace Partridge RELATED NAME(S) Publisher: Horace Partridge SHELF LOCATION American Song Sheets, Series 1, Volume 3

another undated song, handwritten (with same lyrics) SHELF LOCATION American Song Sheets, Series 1, Volume 5

another undated song from publisher Charles Magnus on the hand-coloured songsheet shelves

another undated one from H De Marsan American Song Sheets, Series 1, Volume 5

published again (several) undated by one J. Wrigley SHELF LOCATION Civil War Song Sheets, Series 1, Volume 2 J. WRIGLEY. Publisher, of Songs, Ballad's, and Toy Books, Conversation, Age, and Small Playing Cards, Alphabet Wood Blocks, Valentines, Motto Vorses, and Cut Paper &c. No. 27 Chatham Street (OPPOSITE CITY HALL PARK) NEW YORK

also a songsheet of the refrain only dated 1861 and a songsheet using the Paston words.

A very stable set of lyrics in other words. I certainly haven't exhausted the resources in the library, including an unrelated new claim by one Frank Jerome to have written the song! I repeat my point about the stability of these accounts of the early lyrics. As for the Bishop claim, I have not found and I guess now won't find online a copy of Bishop's John Church version. But I would suppose it would be reprinted in the MacIntyre book, which is listed on Amazon but no copies presently available. The KImball account was published in the post-reconstruction era, when abolitionist sentiment was a bit of an embarrassment, ins't that right? Jeremy (talk) 06:24, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Also in the "Guide to the William R. and Louise Fielder Sheet Music Collection" at http://content.cdlib.org/view?docId=tf9870072n&chunk.id=c02-1.8.5.25.3&brand=oac I find the following info: in Box 32 Folder 7 there is a copy of: John Brown song, or, Glory hallelujah, with nw and revised words Chicago :Root & Cady, 1861. New York :William Hall & Son , 1861 Also published by Firth, Pond & Co., New York ; Russell & Tolman, Boston ; S. Brainard & Co., Cleveland ; H. N. Hempsted, Milwaukee. I imagine that is the Paston words again.

Kimball btw gives late May 1861, Boston, as the first appearance of the John Brwon Song songsheets on the streets. He comments that a couple of verses were added at the time of publication. It is interseting to see that there are a number points of clear agreement betwenn Kimball and Bishop despite their major differences: first published 1861, tune from a pre-existing hymn, was a marching song already before printing, at least one verse added after song substantially created, a partially humourous source for the song (in the Bishop story good-natured mockery of his brother-in-law, and of course the joke about Sgt john Brown in the Kimball version). I think the article is able to say that the song appeared in print in 1861. At the moment I have no reference to show that Bishop's version of the words was the same as the common six verse song although common sense suggests they were. When this is shown I think there will be a good case fro strengthening the claims of Bishop. The first 4 verses hang together, they are consistent with Bishop's claim that they were written in 1859 specifically as a response to Brown's hanging. They clearly show Brown on his way to heaven. Kimball's version makes little sense, not saying he was dishonest. Jeremy (talk) 06:05, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] who was "John Brown" in this song?

In the John Brown disambiguation article and in the The Battle Hymn of the Republic article, both make mention that the John Brown in the song is not John Brown (abolitionist). This article, however, doesn't even address the issue of whether it was about anyone else. If it is correct that the song was originally about someone else, it should be mentioned. If, instead, this is a "common myth/misunderstanding", it should at least be mentioned here and explain the misunderstanding, much like Samuel Mudd mentioned the incorrect etymology of the phrase "your name is mud". Wrs1864 (talk) 12:59, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

It's not so much that it is about a different John Brown than the abolitionist, but that it is about the very fact that this other lesser-known John Brown had the same name as the famous John Brown. The humor of those original John Brown Song verses comes from the fact that they apply equally to the famous John Brown and the unknown John Brown.
"This article, however, doesn't even address the issue of whether it was about anyone else." Actually a good part of the article is about this very issue--that it's actually about two different John Browns at once. See second paragraph of the intro and the section History of the Text of "John Brown's Body" Bhugh (talk) 01:35, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Ok, I missed that line in the lead, but having re-read the article, I can find no other mention. There was nothing in the history section. As per WP:LEAD, the lead is supposed to be a summary, it is not a place to introduce important "facts". I see no references saying that there was any intent of humor about the two different people, so I've added "fact" tags. I have also copied the text from the The Battle Hymn of the Republic article to make the history section clearer. Wrs1864 (talk) 13:06, 31 May 2008 (UTC)