Talk:Joel Osteen

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This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Joel Osteen article.
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Assessment comments
  • This page requires continuing protection from an associate/partisan of the subject. See also the neutrality dispute at the Lakewood Church entry, which reads like a press release. --Crid 20:13, 13 April 2006 (UTC)
  • Changes are needed to the Joel Osteen and Lakewood pages. They do need to be complete and unbiased. However, people who are knowledgeable about the subject should not be blocked from contributing. Just because the body of information is not overly negative, does not automatically mean that it is inaccurate. Including things like links to a person's tax records in HCAD is inappropriate, regardless of who the subject is. It is perfectly acceptable to point out a reference to Osteen wealth in the criticism segment, but publishing links to any person's tax records in this form of publication is not. --Dparsons62 09:03, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
  • The reference to the current value of his home was removed from the "Criticism" section on the page because the majority of the current value of the home was gotten through appreciated value in the home since it was purchased approximately 10 years ago. Even HCAD records show that the value of the home has almost doubled since 2002. The house was purchased for substantially less than the 2002 appraised value listed in HCAD. Unfortunately HCAD does not post earlier data. Therefore, that critical point is not relevant, and verging on tabloid reporting. --Dparsons62 7 June 2006

Contents

[edit] Neutrality

What is the procedure to report abuses by members of the Counter-Vandalism Unit when exerting their own bias onto other editors? Is there a way to remove thier VandalProof stick? I have tried to add an external link to the transcript of Osteen's interview with Larry King and Mhking has removed it within 48 seconds and threatened blocking my edits. This editor is only allowing two external links (Official Joel Osteen Ministries and Official Lakewood Church), both controlled by Osteen's paid employees. There is an urgent need for a balanced view of this preacher. The interview is fair game since Osteen express himself well and said it in his own words. The video would be best. You can read the transcript at http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0506/20/lkl.01.html—Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.40.99.152 (talk) 02:51, 26 December 2007 (UTC)


This article is nothing more than a press release for Joel Osteen. He has been roundly criticized by Christians for a “health and wealth” style of preaching. I agree that the article should not be overly negative; however, it should not be overly positive either. Right now this sounds like it was written by a publicist. Derek Cormier 07:52, 15 August 2006 (UTC)


I agree, especially on the "interpretations" part; makes it sounds like what Osteen says, about God giving everyone prosperity is actually good for you. Xunflash 00:46, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

I think it's fine the way it is. I'm not a member or follower of Joel Osteen or Lakewood church, but I think the negativity towards him from other outside denominations is silly. This article is fine in my opinion.


And for those who chop out the FACTS just because you can't handle the FACT that they are positive, shame on you. Editor


I think the article is fine on neutrality at present. The criticism section sufficiently deals with the other editor's concerns. - Anonymous Jake


The article is supposed to provide both sides of the argument about Joel Osteen's preaching. There is great controversy among some denominations regarding his teaching as a "prosperity gospel." In fact, information about his teaching as a prosperity gospel is not included in the article and probably should be. Kcoover 17:28, 31 January 2007 (UTC) Marissa Miller

This criticism is now included in the article. I am an atheist, and in my view the piece has an appropriate neutral tone. I live in Houston and have seen him speak. He is very similar to the Dalai Lama in approach and delivery - minimizing mysticism and concentrating on positiveness, compassion, etc. That is reflected in the article somewhat, but it doesn't feel evangelical or like marketing regurgitation to me. Ryoutou 15:45, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

I visited this article a while ago and it did include some information about his thinking that if you're a good Christian God will make you rich. Now none of that appears and the entire article seems to cast a unbelievably positive light over the guy. --74.14.92.108 12:41, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not trying to negatize this article, but in some parts it reads like a leaflet advertising Osteen's message. In particular, the line "There are many Jews and Hindus who are his followers." under "Criticism" should be removed if it cannot be attributed to a neutral source. How many of his followers are Hindus and Jews? Are they actually followers or did they just buy his book? This line seems to imply that people of many different religions are flocking to Osteen, and I just don't think that really is the case. Windsorwindsor1 (talk) 21:50, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Hey I have a question; what do you all think about Osteen saying he sees no diference between himself and Mitt Romney....holly smoke does that mean Osteen belives Jesus is the spiritual brohter of lucifer? So is Lake Wood a Mormon church????? WOW intersting isn't? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.181.201.5 (talk) 21:08, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

I think the current page is not neutral again. I think there is a lot of emphasis on the critics of Osteen, not enough on unbiased reports of him or achievements. The headline of preaching style contains some comments on his critics. Actually about 75% of the words are to his critics or defending from it "In answer to questions raised ... emphasizing the power of love and a positive attitude. " The next part about Criticism of Style, which is a good part, makes the article unbalanced. --194.13.118.5 (talk) 09:47, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Hey but what do you think, why is it that people don't like to deal with these types of issues, that Osteen said he sees no difference between himself and Mitt Romney????? Why aren't people talking about this... So like Romney those Osteen Jesus and Lucifer are spirit brothers???? That Jesus "came" to the Americas some time before any body new about it. That there existed two great civilizations in the Americas that go figure there is no archeological evidence for them? Does Osteen belive that As men are once God was and as God is one day men will be? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.96.172.5 (talk) 20:32, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Victoria Osteen merge

I'm not sure Victoria on her own would meet the criteria for notability; however, I do think that including data on her in her husband's page would make sense. Badbilltucker 14:57, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

(Note: I've moved this entry here from Talk:Victoria Osteen. -- Steven Fisher 20:12, 15 August 2006 (UTC))

I have to agree the merge is to consider since she didn't do much beside living a normal life like everybody else. Lincher 02:13, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Oppose: She may not be as famous as her husband, but she's notable enough to have something small. Mostly, I'd find attempting to visit an article on Victoria Osteen and ending up at Joel Osteen to violate the principle of least astonishment (which, as far as I know, is not a wikipedia guideline and yet makes sense nonetheless). -- Steven Fisher 02:00, 7 September 2006 (UTC)
Support the Merge: There are enormous churches who do not have their own wiki items, much less their deaconesses. - Anonymous Jake
If category name is the only concern, let's go with "Joel and Victoria Osteen". No one will be surprised, and that has been done in the case of other couples where both have some role in the organization. There's really not enough for Victoria to have her own article, unless someone is _really_ going to flesh out her leadership of the women's study. Lisamh 03:36, 19 September 2006 (UTC)
That'd be okay with me. -- Steven Fisher 01:42, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
Oppose - They're not a noteworthy couple, like a famous duet band. - Anonymous Jake
I would oppose such a merge. Joel and Victoria Osteen are separate and distinct people, and the case for having separate pages will only grow stronger the more their respective pages evolve from being stubs to full-fledged, fleshed-out articles.Deatonjr 16:33, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
I am going to start a wiki on my wife and I. I'm the best water purification system salesman on the planet. And my wife is a pretty good child care specialist, too. Ifinallysignedup 22:56, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Blinking disorder" or "nervous tic" -- Mr. Osteen's "Blinking Spasms" on TV

Pastor Osteen seems to have some sort of tic or 'disorder' that causes him to go in to "blinking spasms" during his televised sermons, and it seems to be getting worse. Perhaps it's extreme nervousness or something -- and though he seems like a really good guy and is actually quite inspiring (even for me, a Jew!), it's been proven that people blink much more when they're either (1) very nervous; (2) lying; (3) when they have something they'd like to hide; or (4) aren't telling "the whole truth and nothing but the truth." Has any one else noticed this man's wild blinking spasms while watching him on TV? What could be the cause of these spasms, or nervous tics? Has he always done this? --152.163.100.199 06:23, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Haven't really noticed, but that may be because my brother has had an eye tick all of his life. To be honest, speculating on the cause seems both rather pointless and also not appropriate for inclusion in the article. -- Steven Fisher 19:04, 13 September 2006 (UTC)
Chronic dry-eye can cause that too or if theres a draft from the A/C unit.

-- the inference to Pastor Osteen's character is potentially libelous and has been removed.

An inference drawn from true facts is a protected opinion and is not libelous, unless the inference is itself a fact. You could infer that he's nervous - that would be an opinion. Inferring that he is lying is a matter of fact and can be libel. - Anonymous Jake

The correct reference is "Pastor Osteen". Well, you would blink too if you had spotlights shining in your face for an hour and had to talk in front of a stadium full of people, with the AC going full blast. Watch all the live services on the internet (www.lakewood.cc), Saturday night and Sunday morning, since you seem to want to examine his face in detail. Please note that the only service recorded for TV is the second (11:00 a.m.) Sunday service. He has to be on a tight schedule and is watching the clock constantly. Of course he's nervous. He is doing this out of duty and never wanted to preach in the first place.

-- This sounds like a plausible explaination. There IS a lot of pressure for the Sunday morning recorded service. At the Saturday evening service pastor Osteen dresses and appears more relaxed, and it is reflected in the service. --I have Tourettes and routinely tic when I'm not lying. If you have a problem with something he says then criticize that, not his twitch. I personally I think that he is a teacher of a lot of falsehood but I think that bring this up makes it worse.

[edit] Interview Transcript

I don't see the use of a televised interview transcript in a Encyclopedia article.

In my opinion, too many religious articles in Wikipedia are nothing more than advertisements for fundamentalist and other conservative Christian organizations and people. The articles seldom refer to serious theologians or biblical scholars such as Gordon Kaufman or Paula M. Cooey.I agree that "the article" on Joel Osteen is nothing more than a promotion piece for a television evangelist and mega-church pastor. I am not competent to write the articles necessary to improve these articles. Ted Michael Morgan 07:07, 12 December 2006 (UTC)Ted Michael Morgan,Baton Rouge, Louisiana.

Gordon Kaufman or Paula M. Cooey are not qualified to judge pastors, either scripturally or simply in terms of being notable enough that their opinions matter. --Steven Fisher 19:33, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

-- Don't forget that Lakewood Church is indeed a functioning, thriving church in the city of Houston. Joel Osteen is, if nothing else, the pastor of this church and the author of a several best-selling books. The Larry King interview seems particularly relevant to some of the controversy surrounding Mr. Osteen. The quotes seem to illustrate this well. Deatonjr 16:25, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Barbara Walters with Joel Osteen

I am looking for information on the content of this interview on 12-12-06, The top 10 people in 2006. I would like to see it actually. Is there somewhere on line that I can view it ? 216.76.215.39 05:36, 14 December 2006 (UTC)Denise

What about the incident on Continental Airlines when Victoria Osteen was removed from the plane for a "disturbance" in 2005? What happened exactly, and is it worthy of inclusion?

[edit] Largest?

The reference for the "Largest and fastest growing" campaign points to a list of websites, not a list of churches. As such, I've replaced this reference with a {{fact}} tag. The websites article references a list of churches ranked on their size and growth in Outreach magazine, but I don't subscribe to that magazine and don't see the article on the Outreach magazine website. Is that article a better reference for the claim? -- Mikeblas 16:32, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Another problem with "largest and fastest growing" is that fastest growing isn't defined either. There are many other churches that are growing faster in terms of numbers.

[edit] "Criticism"?

Someone wanna tell me how what is stated in this section are "criticisms"? How could they be "criticisms" if some people support them. How about "Interesting/Controversial Information" (not like that belongs in an encyclopedia either)? I think every user needs to look up the definition of "criticism." Wikipedia at its best. 67.186.151.231 23:04, 1 April 2007 (UTC)


Wow. Don't want to discuss the truth about sin? What is salvation then? What does Christ's sacrifice save us from?
"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."- Romans 3:23
"For the wages of sin is death; but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." - Romans 6:23
"I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." - John 14:6 (stated by Jesus Christ)

Afraid of offending people with the cross? Who should we really fear?
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." - Matthew 8:28
"but whoever denies me before men, I also will deny before my Father who is in heaven." - Matthew 10:33

For a self-proclaiming Christian who is a leader of a church and a representative of the faith to the general public, those "criticisms", if they are true, are pretty heavy. Sure, it makes people uncomfortable to hear that we are all sinners who rebel against a just and sovereign God, but to hide it from unbelievers is one of the most cruel and unloving things that a Christian can do. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.131.213.160 (talk) 05:04, August 23, 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand why the criticism section can't remain. It may not be criticism but it provides a lot of good information about him. Like his lack of stance on homosexuality and his World of Faith beliefs. --74.14.92.108 12:47, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Hey was up with Osteen saying he sees no diference between himself and Mitt Romney.... Romney is a Temple Mormon; seriouslly does that mean Osteen believe Jesus is the spiritual brother of lucifer of whom he was conceive by "heavenly father" and one of his many wifes? Osteen said there is no diference between a Mormon a a Christian......that is like so wrong. Intersting isn't? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.181.201.5 (talk) 21:17, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism

The Criticism section has been removed. These were in violation of WP:BLP.

  • Material about living persons must be sourced very carefully. Without reliable third-party sources, it will violate the No original research and Verifiability policies, and could lead to libel claims.
  • Material about living persons available solely in questionable sources or sources of dubious value should be handled with caution, and, if derogatory, should not be used at all in biographies of living people, either as sources or via external links.
  • Self-published books, zines, websites, and blogs should never be used as a source for material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the article(...)

Editors should remove any contentious material about living persons that is unsourced, relies upon sources that do not meet standards specified in Wikipedia:Verifiability, or is a conjectural interpretation of a source (see Wikipedia:No original research). The three-revert rule does not apply to such removals if the information is derogatory. Content may be re-inserted only if it conforms to this policy. Bwalker5435 (talk) 06:19, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Osteen links

To 75.40.99.152: You raised an issue regarding my reversion of your edits; you removed the template requesting posters not to add additional links; you did not bring this matter up for discussion on the talk page until your edits were reverted, and finally, you did not bring your additional concerns to my attention. I'm more than happy to discuss those things, but blanket charges of abuse are not only not warranted, they are not appreciated. If you feel that your link needs to be included, feel free to discuss that; however, do not remove the template regarding additional links on the page. --Mhking (talk) 02:58, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Additionally, if you have a criticism of Osteen, a more constructive way of dealing with that would be to write a non-biased criticism section of the article itself, as opposed to cluttering the page with additional links. --Mhking (talk) 03:02, 26 December 2007 (UTC)