Talk:Jitterbug

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This article has been renamed from Jitterbug (dance) to Jitterbug as the result of a move request.

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Contents 1 elsewhere 2 See Also List 3 Requested move 3.1 Survey 3.2 Discussion 4 Regarding Recent Undos and the subject of Music 5 Jitterbug2 6 early 1900s 7 Calloway's Jitterbug Party and the Jitterbugs quote 8 USA postage stamp

[edit] elsewhere

Good info. Can anyone add stuff about the jitterbug elsewhere in the world ?.Johncmullen1960 08:36, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

Also it would be useful to have a description of what is particular to this dance. When it was introduced, what was new about it. Johncmullen1960 (talk) 12:05, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

It seems logical that American troops would also have introduced the dance to Austrailia and Japan. Finding references, though, is not so easy. Regarding a description... It would be a repeating of information in the Lindy Hop article. But not quite. Better to leave it to the Lindy page. It would be a can of worms. Steve Pastor (talk) 21:22, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] See Also List

I wouldn't mind it if someone would liberally crop the See Also list of this page. It's a bit excessive and not really helpful (e.g. would I really want to click on Groucho after searching for Jitterbug?) Personally, I don't feel like any of the dance moves really belong in this list. I'll be bold sometime soon unless someone has objections. --Will.i.am 08:27, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

• I cut out most of it. Feel free to remove some more if you want. —Cswrye 13:46, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
  • 10x better, thanks! I'm also going to remove the "technique" links, but they can go back in if you want.--Will.i.am 23:29, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

Please add more data about the postage stamp.

Jitterbug Wireless

[[ hopiakuta | [[ [[%c2%a1]] [[%c2%bf]] [[ %7e%7e%7e%7e ]] -]] 11:57, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Regarding Recent Undos and the subject of Music

In a message on my talk page Panda wrote "AFAIK, people have danced "jitterbug" to many types of music, including big band swing music, western swing music, rock & roll, rockabilly, country western, blues, hip hop, etc -- it all depends on which dance is meant by jitterbug. It's not clear to me that the page should list all of these different types of music since the page is about an ambiguous dance style."

This aricle is hardly too long considering the fact the the term "jitterbug" was being used to decribe swing-like dancing into the 60s. Except hip hop (and quite possibly country western(another discussion)), I agree with all of the musical genres that Panda lists. Music and dance are very much connected, and where a dance term covers such a wide range of music, and several to many decades, information about that music should be part of any article that claims to be anything more than a summary.

I expected to be challenged on the 'people did jitterbug to Western Swing' statement, and would not have posted it if there hadn't been a reference. I doubt that it is common knowledge among the general public. The quote is still in the article, but it has been taken out of context, and is being used an example of the word being used as a verb.

I hope that we can come to an understanding on how to broaden the scope of this article without turning it into a laundry list of this and that. Steve Pastor 21:43, 15 August 2007 (UTC)

The music that people dance to is naturally necessary when describing a specific dance style but jitterbug isn't a specific dance style just like "swing dance". So it would make more sense to include music information on the Swing (dance) page or when describing a specific dance style. AFAIK, not all of the dances that have been called jitterbug are covered on this page yet and jitterbuggers essentially danced to whatever 4/4 music was available to them and popular at the time (the music doesn't have to swing but it normally does).

OTOH, if you know the specific dance style the dancers were doing in the Western Swing article, it would make a lot of sense to include it here as an example of the different dances that have been called jitterbug. If Country & Western Swing is the same as Western Swing music, then the fact that swing dancers dance to Western Swing music is mentioned in Swing (dance) and West Coast Swing. My guess is that the dancers in the article were dancing a variant of Lindy Hop to Western Swing music, a dance that eventually became West Coast Swing (also known as Western Swing or Jitterbug in the 1940s, see the History of WCS) but I wouldn't know for sure.

Another idea that just occurred to me is putting in a timeline with info about when and where jitterbug was used. panda 15:53, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Jitterbug2

Mikka: This was no simple cut and paste. Phrases were used, but they have been significantly rearrranged. And, you surely checked the reference on troop numbers. You deleted that also. Please tell me which phrases you think are simple cut and paste. This is an important development in the history of "jitterbug". If you wish to add similar information that you don't consider simple cut and paste, please do so. Oh, is there an offical, number of words that are exactly the same as the reference policy that qualifies something as cut and paste? Please point me to that algorithm. I'm beginning to understand why this article is still a stub. Steve Pastor 23:44, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

"Phrases were used"..."rearranged" : Yep. It is copyright violation by all books. You must write in your own words. The second problem I pointed at in your talk page is unknown authorship'. Once again, see WP:RS policy. "I'm beginning to understand why this article is still a stub.": most probably you are mistaken. The real reason is that the history of modern dance is very poorly presented in dance books. You may find wealth of useless information about 18th century dance printed, but people do not conclusively know who invented Salsa. Copying texts from unverified websites does disservice by introducing high probability of propagating misinformation and urban legends. `'Míkka 00:03, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

There is little doubt that there were millions of American servicemen deployed overseas during WWII. There is also little doubt that there continued to be hundreds of thousands of troops in Europe through the 1950s. You chose to delete an entire section, including, as I wrote before information on Cold War deployments that is not even mentioned in the first reference. I understand that is it easier to just delete something than to discuss it, but based on my experience, it is not very productive. Maybe next time you could note that, maybe if I reworded this a bit, it would be acceptable. That way, everybody could benefit. The history modern of dance is not nearly as confusing as you write. You don't accept that fact that millions of Amercian servicemen being in England affected how people in England danced? You don't accept the fact that hundreds of thousands of American servicemen being in Europe during the Cold War affected European tastes in music and dance, and that a dance style such as LeRoc has roots in American Jitterbug? I urge you, as well a panda, to ease up on the undo feature and think more about how we can make this article better rather than blasting anything on sight. I am willing to correct things that are pointed out in a discussion. That's what the discussion tab is there for. Outright deletion does not create a very cooperative atmosphere. Based on my own reaction to recent events, I can tell you that would be contributors will be more likely to stay away from pages that are being ruthlessly policed. Especially people who have been around for a while and come to the table with references. While you may be satisfied that there is no "coyright infringement" or information from "unknown sources", you are pushing away people who are trying to make a contribution. Steve Pastor 20:26, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I am entering this conversation only because Pastor brought me up.

1. People get their contributions deleted all of the time. It's not that big of a deal. One of the purposes of Wikipedia is to allow for quick peer review and alteration of contributions to satisfy the majority of its readers and authors.
2. The only contribution I removed of your's was a duplication of text that was already in the article. Yes, I removed the text about Western Swing and have already told you why -- at the time I assumed that you were interested in adding the quote to the article since it was about jitterbugging. If you believe it is important to include Western Swing in the article, you could include it in a list of music styles that people have danced jitterbug to.
3. No one is refuting that American troops stationed in Europe were instrumental in the spread of Swing dance to Europe. What Míkka noticed was that you had copied and pasted text from elsewhere. Also, as Mikka pointed out, there is a ton of misinformation about swing dance on the web and we should all be careful about where we find information. If not all of the text that you wrote was copied from elsewhere and came from a reliable source, then feel free to replace that part.
4. A tip: there are several Wikipedia:Citation templates that can be used when including references. While you don't have to use them, it would be much more informative than a simple link to a website.

–panda 22:50, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Ahem... "Avoid reverts and deletions whenever possible... Explain reversions in the edit summary box. Amend, edit, discuss." [etiquette]Steve Pastor 20:56, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

Ahem you too. Copyright violation is a serious issue and beyond any discussion. I could have nitpicked the copied sentences one by one, but imagine what the remaining text would look like. Please don't see this as an offense. I am a devoted WCS dancer myself (only social) and would gladly see any useful, coherent info in wikipedia. Even Skippy Blair doesn't have an article, not to say about WSC championships and champions, and other dance stuff. `'Míkka 21:52, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

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Unless you interpret this example as something that ISN'T allowable, the two sentences that were deleted follow this example pretty closely - minus the (...). My interpretation of this is that this example is something that is permissible. The word "extensive quotation" is the operable phrase, in my opinion. What do you think? Steve Pastor 23:00, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

First of all, a quotation must be clearly shown as quotation: quotation marks and stuff. Second, the quotation must be from a reliable source by wikipedia standards. A quotation from an unsigned page of a random website is bound to be deleted. A quotation from a website of a recognized dance historian will survive. `'Míkka 02:28, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] early 1900s

"During the early 1900s, the term became associated with swing dancers who danced without any control or knowledge of the dance." The phrase "early 1900s" is pretty vague. Although there were proto swing dances, swing didn't get big until the late 20s into the 30s. Surely, we don't want people to think the term was used to fefer to dancers to, for instance, ragtime, or the Charleston? I would prefer definate years, or at least what part of a decade to avoid confusion. My inclusion of the Cab Calloway song and film are examples. Comments? Steve Pastor 18:19, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree that there should be a more definitive time range but in the interview Al Minns didn't say exactly when it was used that way. I would assume that he meant at the time Lindy Hop was very popular in the 1930s-1940s. (For added perspective, Al Minns was 10 years old in 1930.) If you'd like to clarify that Jitterbug was first used after Lindy Hop became a popular dance, then that would make it clear that someone dancing one of the earlier dances is not jitterbugging. panda 18:58, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Calloway's Jitterbug Party and the Jitterbugs quote

IMDB has a date of 1935, as do some other sources, for Party. Meanwhile these sources with edu extensions [1] [2]have a date of 1934. I lean towards using the edu reference dates of 1934.

Regarding who did the "They look like" quote, in a 1997 Norma Miller and Frankie Manning interview, Norma associates it with Benny Goodman who didn't play the Paramont until 1936. [3]

[4] [5], but states that is the way she got it, so she didn't hear it herself. Steve Pastor 16:26, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

According to the video, Cab Calloway's Jitterbug Party is copyright MCMXXXV, which would make it 1935. panda 12:13, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

BTW, you can see the video of Cab Calloway's Jitterbug Party in The Best of Jazz & Blues, published by Kino International. panda 19:12, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] USA postage stamp

A few years ago, a 33-cent U.S. postage stamp commemorated the jitterbug. Probably worth a mention somewhere. (Are images of stamps "fair use"? Can someone find a link to one?) Typofixer76 (talk) 16:25, 13 February 2008 (UTC)