Talk:Jewish Cossacks
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Contents |
[edit] Scope
Interesting article, but it seems a bit ORish. Is there an academic source that clearly states there were Jewish Cossacks? Certainly during Chmielnicki Uprising Cossacks massacred many Jews, so I find it rather hard to believe that they would have many Jews in their ranks.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 20:40, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
- Somewhat, due to unavailability of translations from Borovoy's work.Galassi 21:42, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Weird stuff. Most of the article is a paraphrase of the article in the Jewish encyclopedia with some corrections and additions. It is not known whether the Cossack Jews were Ashkenazy Jews or Krymchaks or Karaims or baptised. However it is a start to find out something that was not well known or a popular topic. Bandurist 02:11, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
- The article is largely off-topic. As per title, it should be about the Jewish Cossacks, not the Jewish-Ukrainian relations or arbitrary-picked issues of Cossack history forked here for whatever reasons. We have dedicated articles on each of these issues already. The article needs severe trimming and cleanup. Not that it cannot become a long one but length should not come from inclusion of irrelevances. --Irpen 02:15, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
- An important question to ask is whether the Jewishness of these Cossacks was by ethnicity or by Religion or both? Bandurist 02:18, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
- Well, a very important question and an extremely tangled one. That Jewishness is just an ethnicity is a POV in itself, rather common in post-Soviet countries and rather unpopular in much of elsewhere. You can google for much of the fascinating debate of this yet unresolved question whether Jewishness is about ethnicity, religion, both, none or "I don't like this question". So, let's first do some really necessary steps of cleaning up the irrelevant stuff. --Irpen 02:23, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
- It is safe to assume that they were of Jewish ethnicity, because as we all know- etnicity is omnipresent whether this notion is popular somewhere or not. And it is a reasonable assumption that they were converted, but continued to use Hebrew, being literate in it. Knowledge of Hebrew was not limited to the Jews BTW, and any Eastern Orthodox cleric worth his salt had at least some skill in it.Galassi 03:09, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
- Well, a very important question and an extremely tangled one. That Jewishness is just an ethnicity is a POV in itself, rather common in post-Soviet countries and rather unpopular in much of elsewhere. You can google for much of the fascinating debate of this yet unresolved question whether Jewishness is about ethnicity, religion, both, none or "I don't like this question". So, let's first do some really necessary steps of cleaning up the irrelevant stuff. --Irpen 02:23, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
- An important question to ask is whether the Jewishness of these Cossacks was by ethnicity or by Religion or both? Bandurist 02:18, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Whoever wrote the off-topic stuff, please move it asap to other articles so that it does not get lost because the general stuff about Jewish-Ukrainian relations does not belong to this much a narrower scope article. --Irpen 05:19, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Essay
This appears to be little more than a monograph, attempting to prove that Jewish Cossacks existed.
There is nothing in that article about Jewish Cossacks per se. Language? Culture? Place within Cossack society? History of how they came to be Cossacks?
In other words, nothing that would make this an article is actually present.
Have I missed something? Jd2718 01:54, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Check this out
Check this out. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3724/is_200009/ai_n8917384 What do you think 16:38, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
- It won't be eay to separate the fact from its schlocky presentation.Galassi (talk) 17:57, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Israelovsky
Here is the full quotation: Simon Sebag Montefiore "Prince of Princes; The Life of Potemkin", page 394 "Potemkin' decided to arm the Jews against the Turks. This 'singular project', probably his Jewish friend Zeitlin's idea, spawned in some rabbinical debate with the Prince, started as a cavalry squadron raised among the Jews of his Krischev estate. In December, he created a Jewish regiment called the Israelovsky, a word reminiscient of the Izmailovsky Guards. But that was where the similarities ended. Commanded by Prince Ferdinand of Brunswick, their ultimate aim was to liberate Jerusalem for the Jews, just as Potemkin was to conquer Constantinople for the Orthodox. This sign of Potemkin's unique philo-semitism and of Zeitlin's influence was an awkward idea given Russian and especially Cossack anti-semitism, but it was surely the first attempt by a foreign power to arm the Jews since Titus destroyed the Temple. The Prince wanted his Israelovsky to be half-infantry, half-cavalry, the latter to be Jewish Cossacks with Zaporogian lances: 'we already have one squadron', observed Ligne to Joseph II. Thanks to the shortness of their stirrups, their beards come down to their knees and their fear on horseback makes them like monkeys.' Joseph, who had loosened the restrictions of his own Jews, was probably amused. By March 1788, thirty-five of these bearded Jewish Cossacks were being trained. Soon there were two squadrons, and Ligne told Potemkin there were plenty more in Poland. Ligne was skeptical, but he admitted he had seen excellent Jewish postmasters and even postillions. The Israelovsky evidently went out on patrol with the cavalry because Ligne wrote that they were as terrified of their own horses as those of the enemy. But five months later Potemkin cancelled the Israelovsky. Ligne joked that he did not dare continue them for fear of 'getting mixed up with the Bible.' So ended this rare experiment that says a great deal about Potemkin's originality and imaginaton. Ligne thought the Jewish Cossacks were 'too ridiculous'. Instead, Potemkin concentrated on a 'great number of Zaporogians and other Cossack volunteers' pouring in to form the new Black Sea Host." Footnote: "One wonders what happened to those Jewish Cossacks. Six years later, in 1794, Polish Jews raised a force of 500 light cavalry to fight the Russians. Their colonel Berek (Berko) Joselewicz joined Napoleon's Polish Legion in 1809. Did any of Potemkin's Jewish Cossacks fight for Napoleon?" —Preceding unsigned comment added by AllenHansen (talk • contribs) 12:37, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Notability
This appears to be a hash-up of one paragraph articles, mostly about individual Jews who happened to become Cossacks. The lack of any unifying information (culture, language, special role within Cossack society (?), how they became Cossacks, etc) gives away that this is not a single article.
Rather than tell us about Jewish Cossacks, the article is devoted to showing that they existed. This is a good sign that the notability of the topic as a single topic should be doubted. Jd2718 (talk) 15:09, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
- You should learn something about the history and culture of the place and the era before putting HIGHLY inappropritae tags. The article is referenced, and is supported by the work of Saul Borovoy, a major historian.Galassi (talk) 15:35, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Original Research
I tagged this article as original research. By stringing together a list of unrelated individual anecdotes and facts, mostly from marginally reliable sources, this article is, taken as a whole, a single piece of original research, a synthesis. (this seems inevitable, as the topic is not notable) Jd2718 (talk) 15:20, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
- Ludicrous. This topis is extraordinarily notable.Galassi (talk) 15:37, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
I suggest cutting down on the accusatory rhetoric. The article clearly lacks focus and is devoted to the J-UA relations in general, not the Jewish Cossacks of which there were none. --Irpen 18:17, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
- Would you please provide reliable sources that would inequivocally state any lack of such individuals?Galassi (talk) 18:40, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
- Well, first you have to present source that assert the existence of such individuals. Note the other concurrent discussion at the talk of the History of Jews in UA. --Irpen 18:49, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
- The entire Borovoy diss is devoted to the subject, which needs no assertion. Except for anti-Semites, maybe....Galassi (talk) 18:54, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
- Galassi, this is the warning #2. Please tone it down. And, btw, I see no indication from the article's sources that practicing Jews were Cossacks. Among Cossacks? Yes. Converted Jews being Cossacks? Perhaps. But those are no more "Jewish" Cossacks in that century's context. And most of the article just forks J-UA relations which is plain wrong. --Irpen 18:58, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
- Galassi is quite correct. Soviet era antisemites suppressed Borovoy's research because it compromised pure-ethnic "quasi Aryan" view of Cossacks especially after WWII. No one else would ever need any such justification.Lute88 (talk) 19:23, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
- Please reread above starting from "I see no indication from the article's sources that practicing Jews were Cossacks." --Irpen 19:28, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
- Galassi is quite correct. Soviet era antisemites suppressed Borovoy's research because it compromised pure-ethnic "quasi Aryan" view of Cossacks especially after WWII. No one else would ever need any such justification.Lute88 (talk) 19:23, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
- Galassi, this is the warning #2. Please tone it down. And, btw, I see no indication from the article's sources that practicing Jews were Cossacks. Among Cossacks? Yes. Converted Jews being Cossacks? Perhaps. But those are no more "Jewish" Cossacks in that century's context. And most of the article just forks J-UA relations which is plain wrong. --Irpen 18:58, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
- The entire Borovoy diss is devoted to the subject, which needs no assertion. Except for anti-Semites, maybe....Galassi (talk) 18:54, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
- Well, first you have to present source that assert the existence of such individuals. Note the other concurrent discussion at the talk of the History of Jews in UA. --Irpen 18:49, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
- Please remember we are not talking the 20th century context. Back then the concept of the nation did not exist even, let alone the "Jewish nation". People were classified by the language, religion, social status and suzerainty. --Irpen 19:49, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Interesting article. ЄВРЕЇ-КОЗАКИ by Yuri Mytsyk. But the interesting stuff is the bibliography
- 1. Евреи-казаки в начиг XVII в. // Киевская старина. - 1890. - № 5. С. 377-379.
- 2. Головний Apxiв давніх актів у Варшаві. - Ф. «Apxiв Замойських». - № 3048. - С.286. Текст цього листа був нами вже видрукований: «Mycyk J. Zyd na Siczi Zaporoskej w XVII w. // Biulatyn Zudowskego Instytutu Istorycznego w Polsce. - Warszawa, 1993. - S. 65-66.
- 3. Horn M. Powinnosci wojenne zydow w Rzeczy Potpolitej w XVI, XVII wieku. - Warszawa, 1978.
- S. 103.
- 4. Luber S. Die Herkunft von Zaporoger Kozaken des 17 Jahrhunderts nach personennamen. - Berlin, 1983. - S. 100.
- 5. Архив Юго-Западной России. - Киев., 1914. - Ч. III. - Т.4. - № 45. - С. 100-102.
- 6. Січинський В. Чужинці про Україну. - К., 1992. - С. 99-100.
- 7. Центральний держащий історичний apxiв України в Києві). - Ф. 229. - On. I. - № 232. - Арк. 199.
- 8. Лиман І. I. Церква в духовному cвіті Запорозького козацтва. - Запоріжжя, 1992. - С.8.
- 9. Там само; Скальковський А. О. Історія Нової Ciчi або останнього Коша Запороэького. -Дніпропетровськ, 1994. - С. 192.
- 10. Лиман I. I. Церква... - С. 8.
- 11. Apxiв Коша Нової Запорозької Ciчi. Опис справ. 1713-1776. - К., 1994. - С. 77.
- 12. Боровий С. А. Євреї в Запорозькій Ciчi. // Праці Інституту єврейської культури ВУАН.
- К., 1930.
No 1 about Jewsih Cossacks was published in 1890 by an eminent scholarly magazine.
No 12 is also quite an important journal from 1930.
The topic is notable, although it certainly is a topic that has not received the recognition that it should have received. Interesting is that sources are not just in Ukrainian or Russian, but also in German and Polish. Bandurist (talk) 21:37, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
- Adding info on number 4: ISBN 3-447-02381-3, the book by the Slavist and translator Susanne Luber has 145 pages and here you get a two-page review of the work. Hm, I have no accesse to JSTOR, but if the book is really also mentioning "Jewish Cossacks", I can only say I have seen articles kept on Wikipedia with less than this to reference the phenomenon ... But indeed, there should be less about Jewish-Ukrainian relationships here and perhaps a line about the fact that they may have been converted - or we should refer to some article about the ethnicity/religion problem. Er, someone said above Orthodox priests knew Hebrew (so, but that is OR on OR, we presume they could talk to these guys). Unfortunately, most of the chaps who may have joined these military outfits "probably only knew enough Hebrew to get through Bar Mitzvah" (like knowlege of Latin by Roman Catholic boys going through confirmation), their mother tongue was Yiddish, and it only looked like Hebrew when it was written down - it was a Germanic language! So that argument about Orthodox priests is not worth a Ukrainian shekel. Wishing loads of mazzel to anyone who wants to correct this article, by the way. --Paul Pieniezny (talk) 13:29, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- Bedanckt for your opinion. However in is not well informed. The upper stratum of the Cossack society was extremely well educated, with some officers possessing degrees from OXford, Sorbonne or Bologna. Western style education was brought to Ukraine when cossack mersenaries came back from the 30year War. Hebrew was obligatory at the seminary that staffed entire Eastern and Southern Europe- Kyiv-Mohyla Academy.Galassi (talk) 13:46, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- I am so sorry, mensh, but I was not shmoozing, I was not arguing against Orthodox priests knowing Hebrew. Hebrew, however, was never the mother tongue of the immense majority of Jews living in Europe from 800 on. In Spain, a "Jewish" version of Spanish became the norm ("Spanish" speaking Jews later emigrated to Thessalonica and Crete - they were the "Greek" Jews exterminated by the nazis). Later, in the Rhineland, Jews switched to German, which as the Jews trekked East became more and more influenced by Slavic languages. So it does not matter whether Orthodox priests spoke Hebrew, it does not matter how much Hebrew Mazepa knew (very little, I am inclined to think, if he left school at 15), the point is that only Jewish rabbis knew Hebrew and 99% of Jews in Eastern Europe had far less trouble being understood by German Mennonites than by Orthodox priests who would have addressed them in Hebrew. Before the vernacular was used in the Roman Catholic Church Western Rite, 99% of Roman Catholics had no idea what they were saying when reciting the Credo in Latin, and the same thing applied to Jews and Hebrew. Of course, now in Israel, the spoken language is a "derivation" from Hebrew and Yiddish is fast dying out... Bedanckt is badly spelled Dutch by the way ("Bedankt", though you normally say "Dank U", as "bedankt" may imply you want to get rid of that person's company: "Ты свободен!"), in Yiddish you say "a sheynem dank". Zay gezunt! (not implying that you sneezed, just saying goodbuy!).--Paul Pieniezny (talk) 15:15, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- Bedanckt for your opinion. However in is not well informed. The upper stratum of the Cossack society was extremely well educated, with some officers possessing degrees from OXford, Sorbonne or Bologna. Western style education was brought to Ukraine when cossack mersenaries came back from the 30year War. Hebrew was obligatory at the seminary that staffed entire Eastern and Southern Europe- Kyiv-Mohyla Academy.Galassi (talk) 13:46, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Cossacks and racism
Just reviewing many of the above sources one comes to the conclusion that the Zaprozhian Cossacks were not racists, because they included many peoples into the ranks of the cossacks ... but they did wind up being extremely hostile to all non-orthodox religions, in particular the Poles and the Uniates. One has to re-assess the the happenings of Khmelnytsky's times, as at that time they were even killing Greek Catholics, ie Byzantine Eastern Orthodox Christians who had come into UNion with the Catholic church. Bandurist (talk) 20:08, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- Did the question of racism ever come up? Just consider that Hetman Fedorenko was a converted Tatar.Galassi (talk) 23:26, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Wasn't he the prototype (or his actions) for Taras Biulba? Bandurist (talk) 02:44, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
