Talk:Jeff Cooper (colonel)

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article is within the scope of the WikiProject Firearms; If you would like to join us, please visit the project page where you can find a list of open tasks. If you have any questions, please consult the FAQ.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.
Biography Portal
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the project's quality scale. [FAQ]

Please rate the article and, if you wish, leave comments here regarding your assessment or the strengths and weaknesses of the article.
Maintenance An appropriate infobox may need to be added to this article, or the current infobox may need to be updated. Please refer to the list of biography infoboxes for further information.
MILHIST This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see lists of open tasks and regional and topical task forces. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.
Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale.

Contents

[edit] History professor?

I like coop as much as the other guy, but was he a history professor? I think we need a source for that. I can let philosopher fly, as anyone can be. --Kvuo 02:19, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

According to his webpage he has a MA in History, however, there is no mention that he actually taught history. -- L.J.Brooks 01:46, 03 Mar 2006 (UTC)

I know two of his daughters. He taught high school in Big Bear, California in the 50s and 60s, mainly as an alternate teacher.

[edit] Safety rules section and a few other changes and questions

I changed all Commentaries URLs to http://dvc.org.uk/jeff since that seems to be the canonical one (there are 4-5 mirrors in total).

I changed "Colt 1911" to "1911 Colt" because I'm certain the model of the year is more important than the fact that Colt is the best known historical manufacturer---and this is how Cooper refers to it. Not a minor detail since the Colt addition of a firing pin block is considered to be significant.

I added "and several other referenced books" to the entry for Paladin Press since they are pretty much the only current publisher of books by Cooper, including almost all the ones referenced in the article.

The big change was to the safety rules. The previous version was a "corrupt text": only rule three did not have a significant change (although rule four only adds a necessary phrase to the traditional version). The accompanying explanatory text seems to be from The Modern Technique of the Pistol, cut down and otherwise modified.

For now, I took the newest version I could find and bolded the rules themselves.

My question here is how much additional explanatory text should there be; one of the major virtues of Cooper's rules is that they are simple. On the other hand, more explanations from an original source would probably help.

The other questions is: the single quote used for _The Art of the Rifle_ is "Pick up a rifle and you change instantly from a subject to a citizen," and I'd like to add it to the two quotes in the article, but I don't see a good place to do that, and I'm not sure adding this quote would improve that section.

I have some issues with the Weaver Stance, which are a major point of debate between the Cooper camp and others, but I think they are best addressed in the stance's article.

Hga 10:48, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] All guns are always loaded, even when they're not

sounds more like a law of physics than of shooting. i'm oxymoronic, even when i'm not -W guice 09:28, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

It's a "law" of attitude more than anything else, and a lot of ink has been spilled over this rule.
Cooper's rules are oriented towards circumstances where firearms are more likely to be loaded than not, e.g. self-defense, law enforcement and combat, and the training for such at a "hot" range (which Cooper pioneered), and "came from a period when the most frequently heard [com]plaint in the wake of a Negligent Discharge was 'I didn't know the gun was loaded.'" (see link below)
Whereas the NRA rules are oriented towards sport/target shooting (the NRA's main interest). You can find a good discussion of all this at "The Rules" page at The Gun Zone site, which is the source of the above quote.
In any event, these are Cooper's rules per the most recent version I could find. Hga 19:47, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Proper version of saftey rules

68.165.35.18 (and any others): Please don't change Cooper's saftey rules from the version that is cited (from the most recent edition of his Commentaries that I could find with the rules), unless you can find a better version you can cite. These are Cooper's rules, not your's or mine. Hga 23:05, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

Chuckles5492: per above, please don't change Cooper's safety rules. Also, a Google search on Jeff +Cooper +"Four Commandments" turned up only 33 hits, only 3 of which referred to the rules. I take this as evidence that this usage for his four rules is very rare. And the referenced source for the rules refers to them as rules. Hga 00:17, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Korea not in SE Asia

Vietnam would be in SE Asia. Korea is not. Northeast Asia is more like it. Perhaps someone should address that. 192.240.93.54 20:45, 18 October 2006 (UTC)Ricky

[edit] Guru, qualified or not?

68.5.181.88 changed 'He was also known as "the Guru."' to 'He was also known as "the Gunner's Guru."' That didn't match my memory, so I checked Google: I found 113 hits for "the Gunner's Guru" and 896 for "the Guru" +"jeff cooper". Based on that, I reverted to "the Guru". Hga 19:34, 4 December 2006 (UTC)


His column in Guns and Ammo is subtitled "Thoughts from the Gunner's Guru" not plain Guru...so changing it back. Citing this in print rather than a google search a little more credible. This months current issue is the last one he turned in before his death with a large tribute article within. --63.163.213.245 00:55, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Most significant and enduring contributions to riflecraft?

"Riflemen regard Cooper's development of the scout rifle concept, and his subsequent work on the evolution of the Steyr-Mannlicher Scout rifle, as his most significant and enduring contributions to riflecraft." was added by Clmckelvie, and I wonder if it's too early to make such a judgement. Given that there aren't too many Scouts out there, it's entirely possible that his book The Art Of The Rifle (which is intended to preserve and carry forward the art of practical rifle shooting) will end up being his greatest contribution; an inexpensive book that applies to all rifles can reach a lot more people that a 2000+ US$ rifle. Hga 13:16, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cooper and Hunting

All but a stub was deleted:

To limit it to pistol hunting is grossly misleading: the vast majority of his writings on this topic are about rifle hunting. And his support of pistol hunting was extremely qualified, with his personal experience as of 1965 including nothing larger than deer.

The following quotation about hunting gorilla is in context misleading to the point of being incorrect.

The last past about criticism WRT hunting gorilla is an unsupported assertion that is also in general contradicted by his writings on pistol hunting and hunting in general. Hga 11:33, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rule One, Cooper in his Commentaries vs. Gunsite doctrine

Critic-at-Arms, you've placed me in a quandary. I don't want to be one of those "people on Wikipedia who think that if it isn't in the Times, it isn't so", but your change is not a correction but a difference:

I got the following version straight from the Vol. 11, No. 4, April 2003 of the Commentaries:

1. All guns are always loaded. Even if they are not, treat them as if they are.

Whereas you say the following is "actual Gunsite doctrine":

1. All guns are always loaded. NO exceptions! Never treat a firearm as if it is empty and "safe."

In favor of the former, it's slightly shorter, simpler, and I think better, especially since the latter part follows the pattern of the rest of the rules in explaining the "why" of a very short rule, whereas the version you've replaced it with simply repeats the same thing two or three times. Although I certainly do remember hearing the "NO exceptions!" bit in times past.

I think it would be best to revert to the Commentaries version, and then add some or all four rules of "the doctrine as practiced at Gunsite" below. Can you provide a citation of any sort, e.g. some printed matter you received there, especially so that you can add/confirm any changes? I'm going to redo this as "Here are Cooper's Rules, and here are as they are practiced at Gunsite" (which Gunsite, BTW, that's ... rather critical, I'd say, if the original, then we can add "as founded by Cooper") in a day or two, and you are of course welcome to do this first. Hga 14:21, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Paranoid Dementia

In the OTHER CONTRIBUTIONS sections, I found this:

"His opinions found an almost slavishly uncritical following in some quarters. Others, however, found him incoherent, over-dogmatic, consistently inconsistent and frequently deeply flawed in many of his judgements. Towards the end of his life, his writings became increasingly archaic and disconcerted ramblings, causing concern amoung some of his closest friends and leading them to speculate that Cooper was suffering from paranoid dementia."

Someone deleted this on Sept 14. I put it back. I recognize that it does need a citation. So why put it back without the citation? Because I know people who were associated with Cooper and this is very much their sentiment. The original entry is loaded and opinionated and could be stated in better terms. But it does capture the observations of many who followed his column and work over the years. As one example, Cooper's deep hostility towards the .223 and AR-15 platform and his deep support of the M1911 put him in a distinct minority amongst armed professionals. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 196.40.10.254 (talk) 22:40, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

First, you should have spell-checked it before putting it back. Second, although I never met him, I have read several of his books and all of his Commentaries. At worst, his writings were in crotchety old man territory. What does it mean to say that his writings "became increasingly archaic"? That makes no sense, and you wrote it.

As to the .223/AR-15 issue, Cooper was in good company. Col. David Hackworth (you may have heard of him?) certainly agreed with the Guru's qualms, based on published statements in his autobiography. In an article by Richard Lardner published by Associated Press on June 5, 2008, several active duty and retired military personnel with recent experience in Baghdad echo the Guru's concerns. I know enough about handguns to know you point the hole away from you (actually, I took the NRA basic course, which is a start) so I have no opinion about the M1911 issue. Cooper is clear that he prefers the right caliber for the job, which is usually larger, and I'm comfortable deferring to his judgment. He did at one point endorse the Ruger Mini-14 for varmint shooting (that's a .223 rifle).

I hope his "closest friends" took some action about their dementia worries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.49.77.67 (talk) 22:24, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Jeff Cooper's Expertise on Survival Retreat Topics

Another editor removed a link to an existing page on survival retreats, and asked: "Did a bot add this? What does it have to do with Jeff Cooper?"

Jeff Cooper was one of the editors of Personal Survival ("PS) Newsletter in the late 1970s and early 1980s. The "Retreat (survivalism)" wiki article cites Copper's expertise in this regard, complete with citations to his PS newsletter articles. It is clearly a valid cross-reference, so I'm reverting the link deletion. Trasel (talk) 16:42, 4 January 2008 (UTC)