Talk:Japanese words of Portuguese origin

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[edit] Naming

Under well-established convention, this page should be named "List of Japanese words of Portuguese origin".

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=List+of+English+words+of&fulltext=Search

--Paul Richter 15:17, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment. The reason for changing the name back to the original one should show up in the history of the page, but in case it doesn't, the reason that I changed the name back is because I hope to expand this page into more than just a list. The renaming was extremely hasty - it happened only a few minutes after the page was created. Pages under development should not be recategorized as lists as soon as they are created. Please give this page a chance to grow before doing that kind of thing. --DannyWilde 03:15, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
Having said that, I have just checked the history and I can't actually find my own comment about the move (I'm sure it's there somewhere), so excuse me for saying that, perhaps my reasons were not clear. However, let me add that I'm not against renaming in line with conventions. For example "Japanese words of Portuguese origin" or something would be OK with me. I mostly objected to "List of ...", and I renamed it back to the old name just out of laziness, in that it meant less fiddling with redirects. As I said, I want to expand it into a proper article about the words, rather than have a list. Thanks for tolerating this less than perfect article for the time being. --DannyWilde 03:32, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Shabon

Shabon sounds more like old Spanish xabón (modern jabón) than Portuguese sabão.

[edit] kanji and ateji

The information listed here is full of errors. Some of the "kanji" listed in the table are, obviously, not kanji at all, but katakana transliterations. Some of the kanji used for these words are not ateji as claimed here, but are in fact of Chinese origin retro-applied to these words. For one, the kanji for miira/mirra/mummy, 木乃伊, was used in ancient Chinese documents well before the Portuguese' landing in Japan. The Chinese usage was a transliteration based on a Persian language, if I remember correctly. Similarly, pan/麺麭, tabacco/煙草, saboten/仙人掌, all existed in Chinese prior to their usage in Japan, and are in anyway not suitable for use as ateji due to their pronunciation.

Considering the information is "full of errors", your edits are remarkably pathetic attempt to fix the situation. The only actual errors you've pointed out are two small ones: first, the use of the word "ateji" to describe the use of kanji which were added to the words after they had been adopted, and second, the name "kanji" in the column. Why do you make such a wild statement like the information is "full of errors" without attempting to justify it or correct the supposed multiple errors which you have not demonstrated to exist? --Erasmus Quasar 06:48, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
Actually, once I remove the use of "ateji" and "kanji", I've eliminated the errors I described. As I pointed out, the article was full of errors precisely because it suggested that all the Japanese listed were kanji, which they were not, and all the kanji listed as ateji, which they were not. Yes, I could have gone in a removed all the errors, but I thought that those information (the non-kanji katakana and the non-ateji kanji) were valuable and removing them simply because they were erroneously labeled would be a shame, so I simply remove the erroneous labels. Is that satisfactory? Uly 21:59, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Introduced Christian ideas and things"

There must be a better word than 'things', surely. I would be bold and replace it myself... but I realised I can't think of one. I was going to replace it with 'inventions', but it's a pretty specific word and I'm not sure enough that it fits in the article to put it in there. --Last Malthusian 04:27, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] What about Arigato/Obrigado (Thank you)?

I previously noticed that the word for "thank you" sounds very similar in japanese and portuguese. It is arigato in Japanse, and obrigado in Portuguese (Plese feel free to correct the spelling of these words).

I once traveled to India, and I have been told that "thank you" is also the term in the local language used to say thank you. And that in the Indian society, there was no such concept of saying thank you for anything before the Christians arrived (because Hindu's just earned everything in their previous lives, and thus they don't have to thank anybody).

So, what is the origin on Japanese word for "thank you"? Was the word brought there by the Jesuits?

Why did you conclude the above reference is incorrect? As a Japanese native I consider the gairaigo_misconception description to be agreeable. I suppose the Indian case does not always apply to the rest of the world.--Wheetfish 23:39, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "May have come from Spanish"

Is it necessary to point that out on every word that happens to sound the same in Spanish? The article mentions Portuguese Jesuit influence in Japan, but no Spanish presence in Japan is mentioned. So, why the Spanish reference in the list? Just because of the similarity? -- LodeRunner 00:51, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

During the Edo period Japan was a closed country until Perry arrived in 1853. The Portugese in the form of the Jesuits got in around the 15th century then effectively "poisoned" the Japanese against other European nations, presumably to ensure a monoply of Japanese trade. The Spanish concentrated their efforts on the Phillipines. --Kro666 17:14, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Alcohol

I have a printed Japanese dictionary that states that アルコール is actually a borrowing from Dutch (三省堂現代新国語辞典). Somebody might want to edit that. Kcumming 20:35, 30 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling

What is the point of having separate columns for "pre-modern Portuguese" and "modern Portuguese"? The article on Japanese words of Dutch origin doesn't have a column for "pre-modern" Dutch. Nor are the differences between "pre-modern Portuguese" and "modern Portuguese" that great, in most cases. FilipeS 15:42, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, I'm just a reader in here, but here's my say: The two columns should stay, even though there's only a noticeable difference in some of the words. As a native speaker of brazilian portuguese, I wouldn't have a clue of what some of the words in old portuguese would mean, and some of them just look too different from their modern counterpart-- when they have one. So, let them stay. About the "obrigado" discussion, I'd only want to add that, at least down here, obrigado and arigato sound different from each other, thus, I kinda doubt that the origin is the same. Obrigado, in our portuguese, sounds like "oh-bree-GAH-dow", while arigato, if my short knowledge about this is true, is pronunced "ah-ree-gah-TOH"... (people who know to do the IPA thing would be helpful right now)200.98.120.2 04:59, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

It's well known that Arigato does not derive from Obrigado. There is no discussion. You say there is a "noticeable difference" between the old Portuguese and the modern Portuguese words, to the point that you "wouldn't have a clue of what some of the words in old portuguese would mean"?! Could you give some examples of that? FilipeS 23:56, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Sure. "Charamela", "jaque", "jibão", and I guess that's it. And there are also the pre-modern portuguese words that quite didn't make it to our times, specially in my case, since I'm from Brazil as I said before, and the metropolitan and colonial versions of portuguese can be very different and tricky sometimes. And OF COURSE there's a discussion about this "obrigado" thing-- look some lines above XD. Abraços, Confusing Text 19:39, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of "Tempura"

The article on tempura says that the origin of the word is from the expression "ad tempora cuaresmae". In the present article it is said the origin is the word "tempero". Which is the correct one?

Saw this too just now. Adding contradict-other template accordingly. --Drake Wilson 01:17, 16 January 2007 (UTC)
The two articles no longer contradict each other, so I am removing the contradict-other template.
Interestingly, Tempura offers an additional possible etymology: temprar, apparently meaning to heat or harden in oil. Since it is in need of a citation on Tempura, I do not want to add it to this article just yet. If anybody can offer a source to support or dispute the temprar theory, could they please make the appropriate edits to both articles? --Dave314159 14:45, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The list is not exhaustive

I believe this list is far from being complete. I can think of at list one word missing such as "misa", from missa (meaning mass, the Christian religious ceremony). Is "pisutoru" from Portuguese or from Dutch Origin?

I just dont think this is very evident, Vietnamese say ( i dont know how to spell it in vietnamese ) they say somthing like, xe bon (sey bon) for soap, that sounds like shapon too, does that mean its of portuguese origin?

[edit] Misleading prsentation

The word listed as "brother" (iruman, イルマン・入満・伊留満・由婁漫) does not mean a fraternal brother. The translation from Japanese would be brother-in-Christ. As Christianity is a European construct it is obvious that words related to Christianity are of a foreign origin. Suggesting that the Japanese word for brother is derived from Portuguese is inaccurate and misleading. Japanese for brother (male child of the same parents) is kyoudai (兄弟). --Kro666 17:22, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Piri piri is also used to describe something as spicy in Japanese. The word may come from the Portuguese.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_birdseye

[edit] About 'pandoro', 'shōro' and 'shurasuko' in the list

I think using Portugese words for referring to things vernacular to Portugal or Brazil is natural and even inevitable. And if so, do these words have to be in the list? 221.113.47.7 (talk) 00:15, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand what you're saying. FilipeS (talk) 00:22, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for replying. I'm afraid my English expression is bad, anyway... I mean, in other point of view, if these words are in the list, then why samba (samba), bosanoba (bossa nova), fado (fado), feijoāda (feijoada), bakaryau (bacalhau), madeira-shu (vinho da Madeira), etc. etc. are not? Ka-kupaci (smells-good) (talk) 02:51, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
I removed the three modern words you pointed out, Ka-kupaci. They don't belong here. Thank you. Oda Mari (talk) 05:26, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
Thank you for quick helping :-) Ka-kupaci (smells-good) (talk) 07:15, 10 December 2007 (UTC)