Talk:Jansenism

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Contents 1 References 2 Expansion 3 Dead link 4 Contrast to Calvinism 5 Heresy

[edit] References

http://mb-soft.com/believe/txc/jansenis.htm

http://frenchminds.healthekids.net/course.phtml?course_id=628

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/people/A0858980.html

I'm adding some see also kind of links to Dale Van Kley's bio page. This prominent historian is one of THE scholars of Jansenism and has written prolifically on the subject. His works are cited by just about any book I've ever read on the topic, and I've read more on it than I'd like to admit! :) --164.107.92.120 21:59, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Expansion

"An opponent of the Jesuits, Jansen proposed a return to the principles laid down in the work of St. Augustine of Hippo."

Would someone please expand this sentence to show exactly what in Augustine's ethos links his writings/thought/ethos to Jansenism - it doesn't necessarily follow and it would make the leap of thought clearer to others.

Thanks,

Iamlondon 14:56, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I added the briefest of theological rationales just now. The.helping.people.tick 15:32, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dead link

I removed [1] from the article. The top google results for frenchminds are all WP or mirrors, so this site has probably gone to the great server in the sky. Silverfish70 13:17, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Contrast to Calvinism

Unlike Calvinism, however, Jansenism lacked a doctrine of assurance, making salvation unknowable even to the "saved." I am under the impression that lack of assurance is a current criticism of Calvinism. In the eyes of Calvinism (says this criticism), people can have a religious experience and even call upon the name of Jesus for salvation, but if they end up apostate by the time of their death, they were never "really" saved, God never actually gave grace to them. In that context, the predestination of the saved and the predestination of the unsaved is unknown by the individual involved. Does anyone know more about this theological controversy? --BlueNight 06:47, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Jansenism believed in predestination, but in a more merciful fashion than Calvinism. To Jansenists, God had saved a few men out of His mercy, as all deserved to be damned from the moment of original sin. Calvinism, in contrast, believed in double predestination where God both damned and saved. I don't know for Calvinists, but for Jansenists God's grace (and hence, salvation) was visible through works. If a man was doing good things, he must have God's grace, for only evil acts were doable after the fall without God's assistance. eperry 4/29/07

"In Jansenist thought, human beings were born sinful, and without divine help a human being could never become good." How does this differ from mainstream Catholic belief? Xxanthippe 00:15, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

It does not. The main difference between Jansenism and main Catholic thought is its belief of predestination. Otherwise, the debate focused on "efficacious grace" vs "sufficient grace": in agreement with Augustinism, Jansenius insisted that God did not bestow to all men his grace, and that only an "efficacious grace" could save man. On the other hand, Jesuits, following Luis Molina and Molinism, claimed that a "sufficient grace" was bestowed to all men, and that, by itself, it could save man. The latter insists on human's free will while the former insists on the necessity of grace: the heresy, on one side or the other, would be to annihilate the opposing pole. This tension is already to be found in St. Augustine, who claimed that if an "efficacious grace" was necessary, it did not cancel man's free will. Note that particularly radical forms of Jesuitism were also considered heretical (equivalence between natural and Christian virtues or justification of lies by Thomas Sanchez under the pretext of "direction of intention", etc.) Spirals31 (talk) 17:37, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Heresy

This article does not appear to explain why this sect was condemned as a heresy - which aspects of its doctrine contradicted Catholic orthodoxy. Chubbles 01:07, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Ditto the above comment. The article could use a clear statement of what the Catholic propositions were which were denied by Jansenism and what the propositions of Jansenism were which were denied by the Catholic Church. patsw 23:28, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Added, per above. patsw 02:41, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

"In France, King Louis XIV, acting under the pressures of the Jesuits, sought the end of Jansenism." Is this plausible? I would not have thought that Louis XIV was a person to be easily influenced by anybody. There must have been a lot of internal French politics involved in the downfall of Jansenism. Xxanthippe (talk) 21:54, 21 November 2007 (UTC).

Definitely serious. Sun-King maybe, but human being still, and his personal penitentiary, François Annat, was a Jesuit. Of course, there were other reasons, not least the political importance of the Society of Jesus, in Rome, in Europe, and in the whole world. Spirals31 (talk) 17:07, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

OED defines "penitentiary" as "office in papal court deciding questions of penitence" Is this what is meant? Would "confessor" or "spiritual director" be more appropriate in the context? Xxanthippe (talk) 09:01, 28 November 2007 (UTC).

Spiritual director & confessor is what I had in mind. Spirals31 (talk) 12:30, 17 February 2008 (UTC). Thanks, article modified. Xxanthippe (talk) 23:13, 17 February 2008 (UTC).