Talk:James Douglas, Lord of Douglas

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Why do we feel the need to hide the physical descriptions of the Good Sir Douglas? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Parrish Smith (talk • contribs)

What is Sir James Douglas' Gaelic name? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.226.110.226 (talk • contribs)

I'd wager something like "Seumas Dubhglas". I'm not so sure about that, though. -- Ashmodai 07:16, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Coat of Arms

Should we put Sir James Douglas' coat of arms on this page? It seems to be something like [1]. The heart was only added after he received the heart of Bruce, but can be found in most coats of arms that are based on Sir James Douglas'. I could throw something together in Paint Shop Pro, but I'm not sure whether there are any Wikipedia guidelines for that. -- Ashmodai 07:16, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Black and White

This is a poor, badly paced article about one of the most significant soldiers-and guerilla fighters-in Scottish history. Too much space is devoted to his experience in Spain and not nearly enough on his early career. In general it requires a wholesale rewrite to let the world understand his true significance, but for the time being I have confined myself to correcting several highly irritating errors and misconceptions. For those who wish to follow the path these are as follows:

DOUGLAS LARDER. Warfare at this time was barbaric by its very nature, and it is pointless to make specific reference to it, or to explain, or to excuse. The point about the 'Douglas Larder' was not that it was 'barbaric' but that it was unique, and therefore far from being 'common practice.'

CHAPTER OF MYTON. Bruce did not send Douglas and Moray to 'lift' the siege by direct attack, as the wording of this piece implied; he had much better military sense than that. The two commanders were sent on a diversionary raid into Yorkshire, intended to draw the English away from Berwick. How Douglas was able to 'see' that that most of the English army was from the north is beyond my comprehension (do northeners look different?). There was no 'Archbishop of Melton'. William Melton was Archbishop of York. Melton most certainly did not form an army of 'prelates' (where did all those bishops come from?), but an army in part made up of priests, monks friars and other minor clerics.

OLD BYLAND. Edward III did not 'lead' the army of 1322 into Scotland for the simple reason that he did not come to the throne until five years later (Prince Edward was only ten years old in 1322). I would have excused-and corrected- this as a simple typo, but it appears again a little later, and even more absurdly. The army of 1322 was, of course, led by his father, Edward II, who was not present at and therefore did not 'flee' from the battle of Old Byland.

WEARDALE. The reference to the near capture of Edward III is hopelessly out of place and under narrated. This incident occured in the Weardale campaign of 1327, which deserves much fuller treatment, and is infinitely more important than some of the other incidents alluded too here. The English army was never sent specifically to capture Douglas. This should not need saying; but it clearly does. Rcpaterson 01:29, 24 June 2006 (UTC)

Should something be added about the Logan clan with the heart of the Bruce thing? Highlandlord 18:25, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Systematic rewrite now underway. Rcpaterson 02:52, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Finished, saving any minor amendments. Rcpaterson 00:27, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Move

If there are no complaints, this article is being moved to Sir James Douglas. He was possibly the first and certainly the most famous to take this article name. Even tho' he was known as the Black Douglas to his enemies, it was only his great nephews that differentiated between Black and Red. Brendandh 02:51, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

There is an objection, namely WP naming conventions concerning honorifics in titles (Wikipedia:Naming conventions (names and titles)#Other non-royal names). Unfortunately, I moved it to the wrong name - I wasn't aware it had a previous name, but was acting on the discussion in James Douglas (disambiguation). I have removed it to what apparently was its former title. fishy 21:51, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
I find this move back rather annoying, Sir James Douglas was the first of his name on historic record, a great hero of the wars of Scottish Independence, and furthermore was known as Sir James within his lifetime and by contemporary chroniclers, a name also by which he is known today. The disambiguation problems by calling him the Black Douglas arise because all Earls of Douglas and their close kindred from the 3rd Earl of Douglas to the ninth were known as Black Douglas. This to differentiate betrween them and the Red Douglas Earls of Angus. Sir James was feudal superior of the barony of Douglas, called commonly today a lairdship, but know then as the lordship of Douglas, this was not a title in peerage, as this had not been formally rationalised at this date. The name James which has been used as a common name throughout the history of the House of Douglas is in regard of this early warrior. The governor of British Columbia, although I am not sure of it exactly, was (great?) grandson of Dunbar Douglas, 4th Earl of Selkirk, therefore a direct male descendant of Sir William the Hardy, Sir James Douglas father. regards. Brendandh 13:41, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Response at User Talk:Brendandh (responding to crosspost on my talk page). fishhead64 18:57, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

Still not happy with this page title, I'm moving it to James Douglas, Lord of Douglas. Brendandh 23:24, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Its a moot point now, I know, but another problem with using Sir James Douglas as the title is that is doesn't disambiguate very well from other James Douglases, at least five of which are knights or baronets with pages on Wikipedia. (I got here looking for Governor Sir James Douglas, who is the person most Canadians would mean if they said it. Stevecudmore 21:05, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Moved

Sir James Douglas was only known to his enemies as the Black Douglas, to his comrades and countrymen he was The Guid Sir James. John Barbour's panegyric describes him as such. Now the WP guidelines on titles (silly if you ask me), do not allow knightly rank in article title even if that is what someone is best known as, therefore I have moved this article to his other designation, that of Lord of Douglas. Furthermore the first person to consciously use the name "Black Douglas" was Sir James' bastard son Archibald the Grim, Black Archibald, Lord of Galloway and 3rd Earl of Douglas. Brendandh 23:39, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I've never done this before so please excuse me if I mess something up here. I am actually working on a connection in my ancestry to Sir James Douglas. The Black Douglas. Whom ever edited the above seems very knowledgable so I would like to ask you if you know if Robert the Bruce did in fact dub Sir James Douglas as "The "Good" Knight?" I see in the text he was known also as the "Guid" Douglas and later knighted by Robert Bruce. The reason for this question is that in our familial records we were led to believe that when Robert The Bruce dubbed Sir James Douglas "The Good Knight" his name was changed (at some point) to Goodknight. There was also mention to the Black Douglas family leaving Scotland for Ireland then on to Germany (years or even centuries later) and finally arriving in America from Germany as Gutknecht, The german pronounciation of Goodnight. I know James fathered 2 children and I have reason to believe that the line my family would possibly connect with would be Archibald Douglas, The 3rd Earl of Douglas. Also, The Black Douglas and the Red Douglas were thus due to the color of their hair? Can you authenticate any of this information? My e-mail address is Banjo227@bellsouth.net and I would be greatful for any information you may have regarding Sir James Douglas or any information that would lead me to more details on his blood line.

The connection you may be looking for is William Douglas of Nithsdale, bastard son of Archibald the Grim, himself the bastard of Sir James. The 'Blackness' is a reference to the deeds of the man rather than his colouring. See this for more information [2]

[edit] Companions of James Douglas at Teba - Sir William de Keith

According to http://www.burkes-peerage.net/articles/scotland/esnews/es0502a.aspx (retrieved Dec 30, 2007), which is an extract from The Great Historic Families of Scotland, by James Taylor, M.A., D.D., F.S.A, published in 1887, the companion of James Douglas was Sir William de Keith of Galston (in Ayrshire), not the William de Keith who was Marischal of Scotland. The Marischal of Scotland in 1330 was Sir Robert de Keith, who fell at Dupplin in 1332.

I believe (can't immediately find confirmation other than dubious websites) that the William de Keith who was Marischal died in 1293.

Accordingly, I have removed the reference to this William de Keith (of Galston) as Marischal of Scotland. Toddj (talk) 16:24, 30 December 2007 (UTC)