Talk:Jagger/Richards

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[edit] Bittersweet Symphony

No offense, but is it really "The Last Time" we are hearing? This sounds suspicious to me. I have never heard that song in that song, even though I've heard "Bittersweet Symphony" a million times. Is this exaggerating by someone, or just misfortune, either to The Rolling Stones or Richard Ascroft, who wrote most of the Verve's early material? I hope someone else share my opinion on this rather unfair matter. 84.49.149.245 18:32, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

whether it's unfair or not, the lawsuits did take place (and were successful, so apparently someone heard out the case and felt the claims had merit). i think that's all the article is stating, not passing judgement on whether or not it was "fair". Sssoul (talk) 12:03, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Gotta Get Away

Why does the link to the song Gotta Get Away, go to a Offspring site? That has nothing to do with Jagger/Richards. --Chbian 14:36, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] the "Jagger/Richards compositions given away" list

i've added a bunch of numbers to the list and removed (for the time being) "Some Things Just Stick in Your Mind", since that *has* been released (on Metamorphosis). i know that's not quite a Stones release, but if the idea is that Metamorphosis "doesn't count", then some other numbers on it belong on this list as well (eg "Sleepy City", released by the Mighty Avengers in July 1965).

i also think the list isn't named well - the numbers weren't "given away"! they were written for other artists to record, and the songwriters got their due royalties, glory, etc. (Pitney's single was their first hit - which enhanced their status and confidence a *lot* at the time.) i suggest something like "J/R compositions released only by other artists" - not very graceful, maybe, but it's more accurate.

oh and: a superb source for this kind of information is http://www.nzentgraf.de/books/tcw/works1.htm - i know some editors "don't like" this kind of resource site, but Zentgraf lists miles of reference works, is very thorough, etc. Sssoul (talk) 12:40, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] some debatable statements

a few of the statements seem dubious to me:

"Jagger and Richards' first song written as a team was "As Tears Go By"."

i know Keith has said this, but Keith isn't always encyclopedically accurate. :] before they did the "Tears" demo for Marianne (march 1964), Gene Pitney had already released his hit rendition of their "That Girl Belongs to Yesterday"; and apparently their demos of "That Girl" and some other MJ/KR originals (Shang a Doo Lang, It Should Be You, etc) were recorded in 1963. that doesn't prove that As Tears Go By wasn't their first songwriting effort, but it does call it into some doubt. i vote for changing this statement to something less definite-sounding - for example just leaving the quote about ALO locking them in the kitchen (which Jagger's said isn't literally true, by the way) and trying an "among their first efforts were" approach instead of specifying which was the *very* first.

Lang and Mink did not co-write; they were credited retrospectively before release when Charlie Watts' daughter informed him that ...

what source states that it was Charlie's daughter who pointed out the similarity? i've read that it was one of Keith's daughters *and* that it was one of Mick's daughters, so saying it was Charlie's (or Ron's!) daughter might do as a sort of compromise. :] but unless there's a reliable source to cite for the story, maybe "one of the Rolling Stones' offspring" might be a reasonable way to go. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sssoul (talk • contribs) 13:44, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

"It is known Taylor left the band for the lack of credits he received while working with the band. Of note are the songs "Winter", from the 1973 album Goats Head Soup, and both "Sway" and "Moonlight Mile", from 1971's Sticky Fingers, both of which are thought to be Jagger/Taylor compositions."

i know this is an emotion-laden issue for some fans but: if i understand wikipedia criteria right, this seems like a prime candidate for immediate deletion, since it's a] debatable, b] unreferenced, c] "weasel-wordish" ("thought to be" by whom??) and d] about living people. Taylor has stated that ONE of his reasons for leaving the band was his dissatisfaction over songwriting credits, but has also often been pretty emphatic about it not being the main reason; and if he's specified what songs he felt he deserved credit on, a reliable source definitely needs to be cited. (note: opinions/speculation about what he probably felt he deserved co-writing credit on aren't "reliable sources" - i have my own ideas, but they aren't worth beans. hearing it from Taylor is what would count.)

update: i've modified the first sentence to eliminate the "weasel-wordish" phrasing and to reflect that the credits question is *one* reason Taylor has given for leaving - i believe sources can be found for the statement as it now stands, and sure hope someone will provide one. for the time being i've removed the list of songs suspected to be the ones Taylor felt he deserved credit on, since speculation doesn't belong here. if there's a published quote from a citable source where Taylor specifies what tracks he meant, that would be great to see - thanks. Sssoul (talk) 16:23, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
update 2: i've added a source for Taylor stating that credits were *one* reason he left the Stones:
"Q - There are two stories going around about why you left the Stones ... because of songwriting credit, or because you had a problem with your septum.
"A - That's complete rubbish. It's not rubbish to say that I was a bit peeved about not getting credit for a couple of songs, but that wasn't the whole reason."
hope that helps. Sssoul (talk) 14:17, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


note to Ruby Tuesday: "actually Jones/Richards, but attributed to Jagger/Richards"

funny to have a note that requires a source, but it does. and i know this is another emotion-laden issue for some fans, but: a reliable source for this statement needs to be cited. Sssoul (talk) 13:37, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

update: for the time being i've removed this statement - it really needs to be supported by citing a reliable source.
i've also modified the note to IORR (the single) a bit - i don't know how to add a reference to a footnote, but i hope what i've done is adequate! Sssoul (talk) 18:31, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] the first MJ/KR Stones single

i just want to explain the series of changes i made to this paragraph: it used to start with "despite claims to the contrary" or something like that, which i felt would be very confusing to readers who have never heard the "claims to the contrary"; and while pondering ways to clarify that without overelaborating, i realized that the reason Mick & Keith often say "The Last Time" was their first original single is not really forgetfulness - it was the first MJ/KR *UK single*, which means it was *their* idea to make it a single, not Andrew's/the record company's. in those days of course the singles were a lot more important than album tracks, so proposing their own tune to the band as a single was a Big Deal, memorable, anecdote-worthy, etc. since "Tell Me" was primarily an album track and it was someone else's decision to release it as a US single, that just wasn't as memorable to them. i'm not proposing that any of that should be included, mind you - just explaining why i decided that adding something about "The Last Time" was a valid way to "replace" the "despite claims to the contrary" part. hope that helps. Sssoul (talk) 11:56, 20 February 2008 (UTC)