Talk:Jacob Frank

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	Judaism Portal Jacob Frank is part of WikiProject Judaism, a project to improve all articles related to Judaism. If you would like to help improve this and other articles related to the subject, consider joining the project. All interested editors are welcome. This template adds articles to Category:WikiProject Judaism articles.
Project Judaism To-do: edit purge watch Here are some tasks you can do: Requests: Jewish and Biblical Units of Measurement or some such name, to include material of Ancient Hebrew units of measurement but also Talmudic units and use in Halacha (a la the Hebrew Wikipedia article he:מידות ומשקלות תורניים) Collaboration of the week { Cleanup: Jewish mythology - needs to be rewritten to be inline with our other mythology articles. Expand: Yom Ha'atzmaut - quite short for an article of such importance Wikiversity: School of Jewish Studies. Part of the new open content university, Wikiversity. Stubs: Category:Judaism stubs, Category:Tanakh stubs, Category:Synagogue stubs Update: Portal:Judaism is WikiProject Judaism's frequently updated portal. You can help make this the best portal on Wikipedia. Look at the talk page to see how you can help. Template loop detected: Template:WikiProject Judaism
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale.
???	This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography. For more information, visit the project page.	Biography Portal
B	This article has been rated as B-Class on the project's quality scale. [FAQ]

An appropriate infobox may need to be added to this article, or the current infobox may need to be updated. Please refer to the list of biography infoboxes for further information.

I have read that he held a small army in his last days, and he had connections with the Tsar's court. Is he mentioned in or an inspiration for the Protocols of Zion Sages? -- Error

Contents 1 Jacob Franks Conversion To Islam 2 Baron Polognes or Prinz von Polen ? 3 POV 4 um pov 5 Conversion to Islam, Refutation of the Torah, etc. 6 Iwania = Podolia? 7 Lwów - Polish city 8 Excommunicated?

[edit] Jacob Franks Conversion To Islam

Jacob Franks conversion to Islam whatever his reason was is not mentioned in this article, there are some sources that do state Jacob Frank did appear to convert to Islam, the first link is to a reliable unbiased source, the other two links try to disprove Jacob Frank and may possibly be biased:

http://www.languages.utah.edu/kabbalah/protected/dicta_frank_lenowitz.pdf

http://www.shema.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=28

http://www.porges.net/Frankists.html

--Taz Manchester 00:49, 24 July 2006 (UTC)Taz Manchester

None of the sources you cite (granted, the 2nd source is to a broken link) indicate that Frank converted to Islam, nor that he ever even flirted with the idea. Is it possible you're confusing him with Shabtai Tzvi? Tomer^talk 10:41, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Baron Polognes or Prinz von Polen ?

Norman Davies in "God's Playground" writes about Frank, but he says that Frank lived in France not in Austrian oberschafen-something as mentioned in the article. He also writes about Franks income, which made me to check his bio in wiki. Davies says that Franks yearly income after he moved to France was about 2.400.000 zl ? 10-15 times more then the income of Poland itself.

[edit] POV

The tenor of much of this article seems inappropriate for Wikipedia. The article uses regularly highly POV phrases like "monstrous" and "immoral" to describe sexual behavior that is likely normal to much of Wikipedia's audience, and comes from a perspective many Wikipedia readers would find strange, perhaps archaic, perhaps offensive. The article should describe facts from a neutral perspective, describing Frankist beliefs and practices, and Orthodox Jews' condemnation of them, with equal matter-of-factness. --Shirahadasha 01:26, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Various editors have removed the most POV portions of the prior version, including previous use of highly POV language like "monstrous", "degenerated", "immoral", etc., so removed POV tag. --Shirahadasha 06:23, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] um pov

untill someone complains, cant we tell the truth? .. and another thing - anyone have info on freud being influenced by Frankism?

[edit] Conversion to Islam, Refutation of the Torah, etc.

In Karen Armstrong's The Battle for God: A History of Fundamentalism she says on pages 30-31 that "When [Jacob Frank] returned to his native Poland, he formed an underground sect whose members observed Jewish laws in public but in secret indulged in forbidden sexual practices. When he was excommunicated in 1756, Frank converted first to Islam (during a visit to Turkey) and then to Catholicism, taking his flock with him. Frank did not simply cast off the restrictions of the Torah, but positively embraced immorality. In his view, the Torah was not merely outmoded but dangerous and useless. The commandments were the laws of death and must be discarded. Sin and shamelessness were the only ways to achieve redemption and to find God." The footnote attributes this to Gershom Scholem's "Redemption Through Sin," in The Messianic Idea in Judaism. However, this is so contrary to what is presently in the article that I really don't know how to work it in. CClio333 (talk) 02:34, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

I certainly wouldn't take Armstrong at face value, when she is explicitly referring to Scholem. If I wanted to change anything here I would work directly from Scholem. From my acquaintance with Scholem what is currently in the entry is not as far off as you seem to indicate. But direct quotes from Scholem on this subject should definitely be acceptable in my view. warshy^talk 11:29, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Iwania = Podolia?

The web page Case of Jacob Frank and The Frankist Movement reads "Iwania (Podolia)". This could be interpreted in two ways as I can see it: either they are synonymous, or Iwania is a locality within Podolia. I think the present article should give some context to the name Iwania. __meco 23:50, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

As far as I can see, there is a town called Ivanja in Podolia (some 2.5 miles distant from Mielnica). I cannot ascertain, however, whether this is the settlement referred to in the article. I wikilinked its mention, in the sincere hope that it would compel some knowledgeable soul to either write an article on the correct Iwania or to create a redirect to an extant article on the subject. Tomer^talk 10:44, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Hello Tomer,

As your talk page is too busy, I've decided to communicate through this one. I think in your page you give a very detailed bio, but if I'm not mistaken, nowhere you give your real name. Any special reason for that? In any case, I am assuming by your signature above that your name may be Tomer. I don't have a detailed bio in my page, but the name is certainly there.

Now for the subject at hand: I think your question is very good, and I don't have an immediate answer. I am responding here just to let you know I am willing to research the subject more carefully when I have some time, and maybe come up with an answer. It was very instructive to me reading your page, and I agree with you that your question above should get a more appropriate answer some time. Maybe I'll be able to provide it. Regards,

warshy^talk 17:16, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't know how not giving my real name (as though Tomer isn't my real name) is relevant to a discussion of the Jacob Frank article. Perhaps you'd care to expound on my talk page, since such a thing seems me to be not even remotely germane here. Can you provide an answer to my question or not? Thanks, Tomer^talk 09:03, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Wow! You get pretty defensive with a little question. It is just that I've noticed this on this universe of Wikipedia, where, it seems, people are willing to discuss anything in the world in detail, except their real names. This is just the ethos I have observed here, and I don't quite understand it. That's all. No, it is absolutely not germane to this page, but as I said, your page looks already too cluttered to just add another streak. Actually, on my talk page, I have already discussed this subject with another Wiki-editor colleague, and his detailed answer to my question may give you a clue as to what I was referring to. If you care to add your view/opinion on the subject there, I'd appreciate it very much. Thanks, and excuse me for diverting you from your busy wiki-schedule discussing a subject that is not precisely germane to the knowledge that is compiled in this environment, but is somehow germane, in my view, to the ethos and ethics of the people involved in the enterprise. warshy^talk 12:43, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

As for your specific/germane question re: 'Iwania', I don't have an answer yet, though the subject does interest me, and I hope to find one in the not too distant future. Regards,

warshy^talk 12:43, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Lwów - Polish city

I would like to remind that unitil 1772 there was no such a city like Lemberg or Lviv. This city belonged to Polish Crown. Also German or Ukrainian name after a First Partioton of Poland shouldn't be changeg to another than Polish, similarly like with other Polish cities in ex. Crakow, Warsaw or Lublin. (Majan (talk) 20:05, 14 February 2008 (UTC))

Your objection seems to be based on an objection to the use of the name Lemberg. Your statements make little sense. The city was certainly always Lwów in Polish, but the idea you seem to be asserting, i.e., that it was only ever known as such, is erroneous. I don't know that it should be referred to necessarily as Lemberg, but that is certainly how most Jews referred to it prior to WWII (and guess what, that's pretty important, given the subject of the article). Your inclusion of the examples of Crakow (Kraków), Warsaw (Warszawa), and Lublin (uh..., well, Lublin!), make your statements allthemore confusing. What, exactly, is the point you're trying to make here? Tomer^talk 09:19, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Excommunicated?

The article seems to imply, especially in the intro, that Frank was excommunicated from Judaism. However, Judaism does not have nor does it believe in excommunication. If you're mom was a Jew, you're a Jew, and nothing can change that. Even if you convert to another religion, you can still be welcomed back at any time and are considered a Jew in apostasy. -- —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.124.149.222 (talk • contribs) 23:01, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Cherem. -- Zsero (talk) 23:33, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Exactly, like Yousef Al Khattab (former Joseph Leonard Cohen), an ex-rabbi who converted to Islam and recieved death threats for him and his family, resulted in him moving from Jerusalem to Morocco.

(But you are welcomed at any time!) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.233.127.203 (talk) 15:25, 10 June 2008 (UTC)