Talk:Jack-o'-lantern

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[edit] Spelling

According to dictionary.com, the correct spelling of this carved pumpkin is "jack-o'-lantern", not "jack o'lantern" or "Jack O'Lantern" or any such. - Brian Kendig 20:07, 29 Sep 2004 (UTC)

This may, indeed, be true according to dictionary.com but it is my understanding that Jack O'Lantern was, for some unknown reason, removed from heaven and sent into darkness with only a gord or a pumpkin with a lump of coal. You can assume that he must have carved it to release the light from the burning coal. Curt Sigdestad

[edit] Ancient tradition?

There is no evidence that jack-o'-lanterns were used in Halloween festivities in Ireland or Britain before the 20th century. Many histories of Halloween make the claim that they were, but none offers any pre-20th century documentation. See the quotation from David J. Skal in the article. — Walloon 04:40, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that is what I was writing, and you deleted me. The vegetable part seems to be an American innovation. But the story of Jack is firmly set in old Irish folklore and probably not connected with Halloween. Let's face the fact, that before electricity and before batteries, flaming lanterns were in very common usage, for how else would folk walk around on a moonless night! My reading on the subject is that Halloween wan not celebrated in Britain and that it connects with the Roman Catholic feast day of all souls and therefore celebrated in Ireland. It is also connected with the Irish festival of Samhain, which is the first day of winter on the old Irish calender. It never went Australia or New Zealand, which all but proves that it was not celebrated in Britain at all. Though it is beginning to catch on there due to the dominance of American culture. MelForbes 11:15, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Has any historian offered a pre-20th century source documenting that "In ancient Ireland lighted lanterns were a feature of the Halloween festival"? (And what's with your rewriting the words in the direct quotations I used?) — Walloon 14:10, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
Halloween comes from the ancient celebration of Samhain, which was the first day of Winter in Ireland. I have read some books on the subject but unfortunately they are back in the library right now. See here origins of Halloween complete wit bibliography. MelForbes 23:09, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I looked at it. The author's only mention of jack-o'-lanterns is, "The folks who were abroad in the night imitating the fairies would sometimes carry turnips carved to represent faces. This is the origin of our modern Jack-o-lantern." But like so many other authors, she offers no footnote source for that claim. As I said, documentation of such claims is wanting. — Walloon 18:05, 24 February 2007 (UTC)

Just to repeat, regarding an addition made today to the article (and removed): there is no known pre-20th century documentation of carved vegetable lanterns being associated with Halloween in Britain or Ireland. See the article itself for more information. — Walloon 16:15, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Turnips

Because this article is about "jack-o'-lanterns", I have deleted "turnip" from the opening sentence. Carved turnips, while they certainly existed in Ireland and Britain, were not called "jack-o'-lanterns" and were not associated with Halloween. The article does mention turnips later on. Carving turnips is a thing of the past in Britain. Jack-o'-lanterns in Britain today are exclusively carved pumpkins — Brits bought one million pumpkins for Halloween in 2004. — Walloon 02:22, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

I beg to differ - Jack O' Lanterns in the UK are certainly not exclusively pumpkins. In Scotland and Northern Ireland at least, its turnips which Jack O' Lanterns are made with. In fact, in Northern Ireland in particular, pumpkins are not easy to pick up from shops as most shops don't stock them.
Also, Ireland and/or the rest of the British Isles having been the land in which the tradition and story originated - in a time before pumpkins were even known of there, I think its important to show that this was the original veg used to make them. In the USA, pumpkins were basically used because they were plentiful and easier to carve. --Mal 04:49, 29 September 2006 (UTC)
Halloween in Britain has only become Americanised in the last twenty years or so. Growing up in northern England the 1970s and early-80s, British kids carved turnips and in fact how to do so was regularly explained around the time on Blue Peter. It was known that American kids had carved pumpkins, but they were simply not available in the UK, and similarly "Trick or Treating" was not something done here. Nick Cooper 13:18, 27 October 2006 (UTC)

Jack O'Lanterns at Halloween are by no means an Amercian invention!

When I was a child in Sunderland in North-East England during the 1960's all the kids made Jack O'Lanterns from huge turnips - it was more popular then than it is now! I can date this precisely as we moved away from Sunderland in 1970. It was a long long tradition then and certainly not some import from America. No one I knew had ever been to America!

By the same token, Trick or Treating is a US import of Scottish 'Guising'. You didn't invent that either! Nick Cooper probably doesn't realise this as the tradition never spread south of the border.

I know you Americans think everything was invented in the US but trust me - it wasn't! Your knowledge of foreign history is diabolical and what your teachers don't know they obviously make up.

It makes my blood boil the number of American-biased articles in Wikipedia. All lot of the stuff written in here is rubbish made-up by ill-informed Americans who think American is the centre of the universe and that nothing existed before them! You're so so wrong about so so much. jcleary 13:12, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

Just to jump in here, but guising is not 'Scottish' in particular, although I have seen that on tourist websites. It can be found all over. The word 'geezer' derives from it incidentally. It's not just Americans who think they invented everything. Actually nationalism is responsible for 'inventing everything' but there we are.... Hakluyt bean 12:50, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
The article already does say: "In Scotland and Ireland, there is a long tradition of carving lanterns from vegetables, particularly the turnip, mangelwurzel, or swede."
And to jump in separately, I've changed this: it's not just Scotland and Ireland for obvious reasons. What did people in England and Wales do, wander around in the dark? Hakluyt bean 12:50, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
However, there is no evidence that carved vegetable lanterns were called jack-o'-lanterns in Britain or Ireland before the 20th century, or that they were specifically associated with Halloween before the 20th century. The term jack-o'-lantern in Britain and Ireland, from the 17th century to the 20th century, referred to the will-o'-the-wisp phenomenon, and not until after the First World War will you find any British usage to mean a carved vegetable lantern. The American innovations are this: 1) carving vegetable lanterns from pumpkins; 2) calling them jack-o'-lanterns (earliest known use, 1837); 3) associating them specifically with Halloween.
There is no evidence that the American custom of trick-or-treating comes from any British or Irish antecedent, and I refer you to that Wikpedia article for more information. The first big wave of Irish immigration to American came in the 1840s, and British and Irish immigration to American peaked in the 1880s, yet ritual begging on Halloween was virtually unknown in America before the 1930s, and did not become widespread until after World War II. And it spread from the western United States, eastward. If you can find any primary documentation (not secondary) of masking or costuming on Halloween in Britain or Ireland before 1900, I'd be very interested to see it. — Walloon 15:07, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

It is known that traditionally, carved vegetable lanterns, or as they are now called, jack o'lanterns, were traditionally made from swedes or mangelwurzels, as mentioned on the Radio 4 programme You and Yours on October 29, 2007. I suggest that the modification to this article comes at the beginning. Perhaps, to ensure accuracy, a sentence along the effects of "Although traditionally, the jack o'lantern has been made from a variety of vegetables (and examples could be cited), today, they jack o'lanterns tend to be made from pumpkins" could be added to the start of the article. ACEOREVIVED 16:13, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] holloween

hi holloween is the h. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.56.72.165 (talk) 16:55, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cultural References?

Films about Jack O'Lanterns, etc? Just a thought..

--Elín 00:40, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps a link to the upcoming film "Trick R Treat"? I see there's an entry on it. Jack O'Lanterns figure heavily in the plot. — 76.80.112.235 00:39, 12 May 2007 (UTC)

"Jack O' My Lantern" is 1880 short story by Joel Chandler Harris told in pseudo black dialect in Uncle Rhemus series. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.98.115.28 (talk) 18:42, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

I think you mean Uncle Remus and "Jacky-My-Lantern". The "jacky-my-lantern" in that story refers to a will-o'-the-wisp type phenomenon near a swamp, and not to a carved vegetable lantern. — Walloon 00:03, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cultural shifts

Has anyone documented a shift in Jack-O-Lanterns from evil, mischievous grins to jolly smily faces? I mean how scary is stuff like this: [1]? Is this what Halloween was 50 years ago? -Rolypolyman 23:56, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes. As seen in this museum gallery of Halloween cards from the early 20th century, both types of jack-o'-lanterns have been popular. — Walloon 01:05, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Great reference. Thanks! -Rolypolyman 15:46, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] How-to instructions on carving

The section on how to carve a jack-o'-lantern has been removed under the WIkipedia rule: Wikipedia is not a manual:

While Wikipedia has descriptions of people, places, and things, Wikipedia articles should not include instructions, advice (legal, medical, or otherwise) or suggestions, or contain "how-to"s. This includes tutorials, walk-throughs, instruction manuals, game guides, and recipes.

— Walloon 12:50, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Jack-O-Lantern and Indian Summer

I don't have enough to include this in the article, but in elementary school a teacher taught us that the popularity in North America of the Jack-O-Lantern is related to warding off indian attcaks on settlers smallholdings.

Maybe someone has more/enough on this to include it?

In many areas in North America, late October brought with it a period of warmer weather, used by indian tribes as a last chance to atack settlers before winter set in and travel became more difficult. It is from this that, in North America, this period of warmer weather is called "indian summer".

Seeing lit Jack-o-lanterns in cabin windows, and having no idea what they were, the indians are supposed to have assumed that they were evil spirits and moved on. Noticing that houses with Jack-o-lanterns avoided attack other settlers, even those with no cultural traditions associated with this time of year, started carving jack-o-lanterns and placing them in their windows.

While this is a plausible explanation or its popularity in North America, it does not, of course, explain the origin of the Jack-o-lantern.

I have no evidence to support this, but just thinking things through logically, in the Northern hemisphere October tend to be a very dark month. Nights are getting longer, it is a rainy (cloudy) month and there is no snow on the ground to reflect what little available light there is.

A light left in the window of a cabin could well have been important to help one find his way home to his cabin.

If, as the article suggests, pumpkins and other vegetables had earlier been used as homemade lanterns, it is logical that imigrant settlers might have continued to make these. As the need for these would have coincided with the various traditional celebrations of the season, it makes some sense that they might have been incorpurated into he traditions of these celebrations.

212.93.97.131 07:30, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Fine. Just find some primary documentation to support this theory you heard from your elementary school teacher. — Walloon 07:38, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Ah more made up nonsense! I rest my case. jcleary (talk) 12:59, 12 March 2008 (UTC)