Talk:Italian grammar

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[edit] Stub?

You sure? This doesn't look like a stub to me. Looks like you've done a reasonably comprehensive job. Quintucket 02:00, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Now you've done an amazingly comprehensive job, especially for an encylcopedia article. It's very fascinating, especialy as I'm taking castellano, a language very close to italiano. Thanks, and keep up the great work. Quintucket 21:13, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

[edit] "Un mio" / "Uno dei miei"

I have removed the example that said "Ecco un mio amico" (here is a friend of mine), which needed later pointing out that the usual form would actually be "Ecco uno dei miei amici" (here is one of my friends).

My reasoning for removing it (and changing it into "Luca è un mio amico" [Luca is a friend of mine]) was that it's basically a bad example. The "un mio" (and "un tuo", etc) construction is widely used, and turning it into "uno dei miei" is probably the exeption, not the norm.

After saying both sentences (un mio and uno dei miei) in my head a few times, I came to the conclusion that both are weird simply because both are unlikely to be spoken (at least verbatim) by anyone: if you're going to say that "here is" your friend, you'll probably name that friend, and say "Ecco il mio amico Luca" (or, really, "Questo è il mio amico Luca", or "Ti presento il mio amico Luca" when introducing).

"Uno dei miei" is partitive, and the distinction between it and "un mio" is, well, that the former is partitive, just that. "Uno dei miei" implies that there are others besides that "uno", and often that those others are relevant to the sentence, possibly by not being included in the sentence. "Un mio" doesn't imply there's anything else than that "un", and that if there are others, they're not relevant to what's being said.

LjL 22:06, 11 July 2005 (UTC)


i'm italian, "ecco un mio amico" = Here is a my friend - "Ecco uno dei miei amici" = Here is a friend of mine". In fact it's right that "uno dei miei" is partitive. -- Mara

[edit] Nice work, Philx

I liked your work on subordinate clauses, Philx, and I've cleaned up the English and the formatting. You have given me hope that I can contribute to the Italian wikipedia now and perhaps someone will clean up my work too. Steve Rapaport 08:11, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Thank, you

Think i'm gonna improve the verbal system, italian as 4 subjuncitve times,all widely used.Philx

[edit] Compound tenses

I have added the compound forms to the conditional and subjunctive tables now as you asked me Philx. I think we could save some space by replacing all "First", "Second", "Third" etc. with 1st, 2nd... Once we're done with the Indicative compound tenses we should have the complete list. Wikipedius 23:00 (CET)

[edit] Subordinate Clauses

To the people who wrote this page, might you consider adding a subordinate clauses section. IE the use of che/chi/cui/di. "Non so la persona con cui esca" "Non so con chi esca" "Spero di uscire con Michele" "So che esco con Michele" --Xtreambar 13:00, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Che is nominative relative pronoun, chi instead is an interrogative pronoun, cui is the dative form of che and chi pronoun and is often used with a preposition, the differences between non so(better italian, conosco) la persona con cui esca it simply that: con cui is like with whom, con chi is like with who, is a matter of choice and taste altough one can say that con cui is more correct.spero di uscire e so che esco con michele is different in meaning because che is used as a conjunction like di and is not a relative pronoun. The moods used re different because di requires the infinite while che the subjunctive altough one can say spero che io esca con Michele and so di uscire con michele, note that the subjunctive + che is required when the subject of the subordinate is not the same of the regent clause. I hope to get me understood.--Philx 01:38, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] prepositions

The article is missing a section on prepositions.

articles and prepositions are different things! Articles are "il, lo, la, i, gli, le, un, un', una, uno", prepositions are "di, a, da, in, con, su, per, tra, fra" and "del, dello, della, dei, degli, delle, al, allo, alla, ai, agli, alle, dal, dallo, dalla, dai, dagli, dalle etc..."

I noticed this also. I'm learning Italian right now, and a section on prepositions (especially articulate ones) would be extremely helpful. LupoGrigio146 14:30, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Capuccino

Is the plural of capuccino capuccini?Cameron Nedland 02:43, 15 October 2006 (UTC)


Yes, it is, but the word is 'cappuccino', with double 'p'. --Stefano 16:18, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Online italian grammar activities

Are these online grammar activities any good to go on the page - feedback please Italian Grammar

The problem with the site is that all content is Flash-based (I don't have an application to view flash content, so I can't evaluate it). Wikipedia has a policy about not linking to Flash sites unless there are no other options; see the external links policy for details. I've added a link to the Open Directory project, so you may want to get the site added there instead. Mindmatrix 15:00, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dialect

Is this General Italian (I´ve heard some people call General Italian ´´Tuscan´´ and some ´´Roman´´?) or some other local dialect?


It's General Italian. There are no such defined rules for local languages. Of course, also in General Italian, there are small differences related to the areas. For example in the south it's much more used the Preterite. --Stefano 16:17, 3 December 2006 (UTC)


The Italian Standar is local dialect "TUSCAN", but each REGIONE have a local dialect.
Es.: Chair is "sedia" (STANDAR) but in Veneto is "carega"

[edit] Object Pronoun Ci

I have always wondered where 'ci' comes from. In the other romance languages, the first person plural object pronouns start with an 'n.' Spanish and Portuguese have 'nos', French has 'nous', and Romanian has 'ne.' So why in Italian is there a 'c' instead of 'n' like its sister languages? BrandonGagliardo 10:17, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

According to the Devoto-Oli Italian dictionary, 'ci' comes from the truncated form (ce) of a late Latin word, 'hicce', which in turn comes from Latin 'hic', that is 'here'. In fact, in modern Italian 'ci' is used not only as first person plural object pronoun, but also as an adverb meaning more or less 'here' or 'there': ci siamo = here we are, we have arrived, or c'era una volta = once upon a time, literally there was, once, .... Hope this helps, Goochelaar 14:52, 18 February 2007 (UTC)
also, ci has many other uses. it can in many ways mean "to it" or "on it" or "at it" for example take the sentence, "credi ai fantasmi" ("do you believe in ghosts", or more literally, "do you believe to ghosts?" the answer would be "ci credo" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.252.204.239 (talk) 12:31, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Last changes

Don't you think this article is becoming too much "informal"?

Here is the real trouble about Italian language! Because there is not a real rule. [...] So: why vàlico-vàlichi and mànico-mànici? Dio solo lo sa! You can get it as an un-stricted rule [...]

agreed. the most difficult thing about this language (for non speakers to learn) is that none of the rules really work all the time or make sense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.252.204.239 (talk) 12:27, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

or

If someone has used "le anella" for "gli anelli" (ring(s)) in last century, please, let me know.

I don't think this is the Wikipedia style.Lupo Azzurro 20:37, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

You are perfectly right. I have done something to steer the article towards a more neutral tone. The main thing that remains to be done is to rework the "Tenses" and "Verbs" sections, which should be unified and made consistent. --Goochelaar 09:42, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Relative pronouns

Does Italian have relative pronouns?

yes, they are: IL QUALE, I QUALI, LA QUALE, LE QUALI but you can use always CHE.
 Es.: Marco, who is 20 years old, is my friend.
      Marco, il quale/che ha 20 anni, è mio amico.

the preterite of temere is temetti, but also temei! temette is temè too, temettero is also temerono! (like all regular verbs in ere). for example. vendere: (io)vendetti or vendei, (egli)vendette or vendè, (essi)vendettero or venderono! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.84.164.123 (talk) 19:52, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Sometimes, CUI (dative case) is used. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 116.68.64.5 (talk) 07:58, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Verbs in -isc-

I have removed the "method" about third conjugation verbs in whose conjugation the infix -isc- appears:

One method by which to determine which group a particular third conjugation verb belongs to is to count backwards to the fifth-to-the-last letter of the infinitive. If this letter is a vowel, it is probably conjugated like "capire," though this does not work in all situations.

There are more exceptions than verbs conforming to this rule; among them, very frequently used verbs like venire and morire (vengo and muoio, not *venisco and *muorisco!). Whence does it come from?? --Goochelaar 11:06, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Theese verbs (capire, finire, unire, tradire, etc.) are often considered as "verbs of a fourth conjugation". In any case, please, is it possible to check this link (In Irregular verbs)? I have seen it's not available, or some written errors are occured. This is a link to see the main irregular verbs. In this site it's possible to conjugate all italian verbs(*).--116.68.66.236

That rule is in Italian text books, so it's pretty legit. As the text stated, there are certainly exceptions. Since both "venire" and "morire" are IRREGULAR VERBS, the fact that they don't comply to a general rule should neither surprise nor exclude the rule. Try it on most "-isc-" verbs. It works much better than guess work. --Scotl89 3 November 2007

I have added something more about this subject, plus two references. --Goochelaar 17:33, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Ok, thank you! ...but, remember, (*)I'm Italian!! :-))--116.68.66.236 09:42, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] verbs (and pronouns)

i speak italian (im italian american, so its a little archaic and not QUITE perfect, but i speak it 'natively' in other words i didnt learn it from a textbook) and i noticed that the description of the workings of the verbs is very strange. it doesnt really explain to an outsider how the verbs work. there is a chart, but the chart does not explain how the verbs work. also, an entire set of pronouns seems to be missing from the pronoun chart. they have the disconnected pronouns (such as io tu egli ella etc.) but thier widely used (and necessary) connected counterparts arent there. why is this? i'm guessing because there are so many of them (the verb and tense tend to mutate them), but we could provide the general o, i, a, mo, te, and no. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.177.177.89 (talk) 21:06, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Tenses examples

I have one question: isn't it possible to have a regular verb in the example of tenses, instead of the irregular fare? A chi mi può capire: sono italiano e il mio inglese scritto è un po' arrugginito... It would be easier to understand for non-Italian speaking... --79.33.210.133 (talk) 22:39, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

i agree. it would make a lot more sense that way (parli inglese molto bene:) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.37.164.205 (talk) 15:29, 23 February 2008 (UTC)