Talk:Italian Brazilian
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[edit] Original Research
Hello. I put the following tags to the page: {{Original research}}, {{Refimprove}} because the article as a whole has just six references and most of the sections have no reference at all. I don't know who originally provided the information, but if that user reaches this page could you please be kind enough and add those references to the article? Cheers. --Mhsb (talk) 05:47, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Italian Brazilians?!
The title of this article is politically incorrect, as it implies that those people are foreigners, or are so considered by themselves or by other Brazilians. The correct way to refer to them - especially for people who are not Brazilian - is "Brazilians of Italian descent".
Donadio (talk) 00:45, 11 March 2008 (UTC) Donadio
I undid Opinoso's removal of what he thinks is "vandalism". There is absolutely no conection between the introduction of coffee plantations and immigration. Coffee had been a major culture in São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro much before abolition, and slaves were used in coffee plantations in large numbers. In fact, the 11 representatives that voted against abolition in 1888 were from the coffee plantation area of Rio de Janeiro. So it is not true that "coffee demanded better trained workers" when compared to cotton or sugarcane.
A good read about the subject is Paula Beiguelman's " A FORMAÇÃO DO POVO NO COMPLEXO CAFEEIRO". Donadio (talk) 21:43, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
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- Are you really serious? The immigration boom in Brazil occured because, since 1850, slave traffic in Brazil was fordibben, and since then, there were few workers in the coffe platantions, which represented 30% of Brazil's exports in that time.
Nobody is saying slaves did not work in coffee plantations, the article does say that, but after the end of slave traffic (1850) and slavery (1888), the immigration of Italians took place to replace the Africans.
With the arrival of the Italians, coffee reached 60% of Brazil's exports.
I am sorry, but you know nothing about Brazilian History.
Please, stop vandalism in this article. Opinoso (talk) 15:00, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
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- This encyclopedia is in English, and in English they use more Italian Brazilian than "Brazilians of Italian descent". As they also use Italian American.
If you know any Portuguese, read this article: Fim da escravidão gera medidas de apoio a imigração no Brasil
Opinoso (talk) 15:07, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Whitening project
I know very little of this subject, but it appears to me this entire section is WP:OR and WP:POV. Also, the phrase "In Brazil, 65% of the Italian immigrants came from Northern Italy" is unsupported. A simple addition of the regions in the list below it prove it to be about 50-50, similar to Argentina. I also removed the very unbalanced POV comments that followed that sentence. It purported to have a citation, which tho' quite long, I skimmed through and found it makes no such statement. Simply put, the comment was bullshit. Dionix (talk) 23:22, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
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- Actually, that list does not count Northern Italian immigrants who came from regions such as Friuli-Venezia Giulia, Trentino-Alto Adige/Südtirol and Aosta Valley. Many of the immigrants came to Brazil from these Northern Italian regions, but they are not even listed there.
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- All the sources say most immigrants in Brazil came from Northern Italy. There's a source about Brazilians with Italian nationality, and most of them got Italian nationaly from Northern Italian ancestors, a second place to Central and a only third place to South. By the way, that list stops in 1920, and many more Italians arrived in Brazil from 1920 to 1960, mostly from Northern Italy. Opinoso (talk) 03:38, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
A lot seems to depend on if you slice Italy in two (north, south) or three (north, central, south). Even your source says that after the Venetians (30% of the total) the largest groups came from Campania and Calabria (both south no matter how you slice it). And to say the list doesn't include the three regions you list are misleading because two of them were part of Veneto or Austria prior to WW2, and thus denominated as such, and any numbers from Aosta would be very small anyways. Also, I don't think you are correct in saying after 1920 most were still from the north. This source, among many others, says the opposite.
Finally, I added the following to User:Opinoso's talk page: Regarding Brazil, you are correct in that I had removed the reference, but I'm still not sure it supports the statement you are making. My understanding of Portuguese is limited, but "os imigrantes do sul eram morenos" does not imply the Venetians are not (many are); and it doesn't support the statement that Northern Italians were preferred under the "Whitening project". Am I missing something in the translation? Dionix (talk) 00:02, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Other Influences
The article says: "A bunch of loan words (italianisms), such as ravióli, espaguete, macarrão, nhoque, pizza, lasanha, panetone, esquifoso, feltro, pivete, bisonho, cicerone, and many others." This interpretation is fundamentally flawed. For one thing, "loan word" does not equal "Italianism." Second, the examples cited here are Luso-fied pronunciations of actual Italian words--approximated pronunciations of Italian foods, not "Italianisms." In the United States, the words "lasagna" or "spaghetti" don't count as "loan words," regardless of whether or not the spelling of the original Italian is modified (gnocchi vs. "nhoque," etc). "Chow mein" in Chinese-American cuisine is not a loan word, as there are not loan words. They are the titles of various Italian foods, nothing more. A true "Italianism" would be actual Italian usage working its way into local vocabularies, as in the Argentine "manyar" or "laburar." These claims need to be modified. --Lulletc (talk) 16:39, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
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- I agree. Very few Italian words came to Portuguese thru immigrants, most of them are, actually, Italian words used in Portugal for centuries. There are exceptions, such as "Brócoli" or "Cantina", which in fact came with the immigrants.
However, there's a strong influence from the Italian dialects in the spoken Portuguese of São Paulo and in some other areas of Southern Brazil; these influences are stronger in people's accent than in their vocabulary. Opinoso (talk) 16:40, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
