Talk:Isle of Portland

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[edit] Older entries

Do people think this page is over-linked, with terms in such common usage as mile, glacier, pebble, island and limestone chosen.

I don't think adding links to every noun referenced in a subject aids readability.

Those terms are not such common usage that they shouldn't be linked, and are very relevant to the article, e.g. "Limestone" and "Glacier" are specialist terms (read the pages). --Steinsky 07:10, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

How would you defend 'island', 'pebble', 'castle', 'quarry' and 'harbour'? Are they also specalist terms? John

Yes. The wikipedia pages for those topics are encyclopedia pages, not dictionary pages, i.e. there is a lot to say about them. Just because you feel you're adequately familiar with those topics, doesn't mean everybody else using wikipedia for research will instantly get the point without looking it up. Why are we having this conversation? This is long established wikipedia policy, and the significance of most of the words you delinked is obvious. --Steinsky 18:18, 8 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Could you point me to a document describing this policy, as I had a good look round the Etiquette pages without finding any guidelines? Jrbray

[edit] Island versus peninsula

Forgive me if this has been raised before (couldn't see anything in the history) but... isn't Portland a peninsula rather than an island?

The term 'Isle of Portand' can stay I think as it is historic practice, but in my opinion many of the references to 'island' in the article should read 'peninsula'.

Before I plunge in and edit - am I missing some geographical subtlety?

Neither term describes Portland perfectly, but island is a better description than penunsula. A peninsula is an extension of the mainland into the sea, and tends to be formed when the sea erodes less resistant rock either side of a band of more resistant rock running perpendicular to the shore. Portland is a lump of limestone that has been completely severed from the clays and chalk of the mainland, but has become rejoined by the deposition of a beach. So Portland doesn't perfectly fit the common description of an island, or the technical description (or common description?) of a peninsula. I always describe it as an island, because my high school geography teachers did. We could always add a geology/physical geography section that goes into these details in depth... Joe D (t) 02:28, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick and learned response! I think a section more or less saying what you've said above would be the way to go. (Contrary to your experience, my teachers would describe it as a peninsula - but of course they may have said something different on the days when I couldn't get to school at all because the sea had come over the Chesil Bank!)

Another response :- Some people also describe Portland as a tombolo (like my old High School Geography teachers from a good few years ago!), however this is also incorrect, as Chesil Beach is the tombolo, not Portland. A tombolo is defined as a sand or shingle bar which connects an island to the mainland, so hence that is what Chesil Beach is, not Portland.

Somewhat confusingly, the feature is still more unusual than that, however, as Chesil Beach is not a true tombolo (which formed by wave refraction) but is more likely to be a barrier beach or a bar, formed by sea level rise, which just happened to join onto Portland at one end.

There is also some evidence to show that the land to the immediate east of Chesil Beach, upon which Portland Beach road is built, may have been formed by a second tombolo, making Portland still even more unusual. This information can be found on http://www.soton.ac.uk/~imw/portharb.htm, along with any other information to clarify this quite complex and interesting subject.

It is always annoying when tourist guides write about Portland, and use phrases like ...'almost an island'... or ...'explore the 'island' of Portland'... The writers should get their facts straight, as they are supposed to know about the local area, unlike the majority of the locals, who don't need to know about it. 86.133.48.130 20:44, 13 June 2006 (UTC))

I can't believe this is correct. An island is land completely surrounded by water. A "tied island" is not a kind of island, it is a kind of peninsula, in the same way that a "sunken island" is not a kind of island, but a part of the seabed. Structurally a tied island may have been "assembled" from an island and a connecting spit, but however you look at it, it does not have water all the way round. The current claim can easily be shown to be wrong by a simple thought experiment: what if the shingle extended a bit further, and surrounded the original island on all sides? On the current definition such an arrangement would still be an island, even though it did not touch water anywhere.
The reference given in the article does clearly show that Portland is a tied island. However, it does not show that a tied island is not a kind of peninsula. To justify that claim we need either:
  • A reliable definition of "island" which includes tied islands, or
  • A reliable definition of "peninsula" which excludes them.--Richard New Forest (talk) 18:56, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Finding such a reference is very hard. I have searched for ages for reliable studies of Portland, which would define exactly what it is. The best guide I can find is that of http://www.soton.ac.uk/~imw/chesil.htm , but that doesn't clarify the issue, merely showing how complex it is.

The hard bit is that Portland and Chesil beach are both really unique cases. Chesil beach is a unique tombolo - it wasn't formed due to refraction like other island-beach systems, the current system is very complicated in the area, nobody knows for sure from what or by what process the beach was formed It is a fossil beach - no new material is supplied to it. Nobody even knows what is under the shingle (storms reveal clay and peat and all sorts). It is parallel to the coast for most of its length, instead of perpendicular like other tombolos. There is no 'land' between Portland and Weymouth, only the shingle of Chesil. On the eastern side of the beach (where there is now a road and bridge), another beach has been deposited in the calm waters, but that does not extend all the way to the mainland - if Chesil was not there, then Portland would not have any link to the mainland, with only the concrete road bridge. I don't think that Chesil can be easily classified into any single landform.

The question is then, what to call Portland? If I or you could find some geographical definition, then that would be amazing, but I doubt it. I think the best thing to do is carefully work out what is best to say. This is what we have now: "This feature is often incorrectly defined as a peninsula or a tombolo — Portland is a 'tied' island, and Chesil Beach is its tombolo." Clarifying that Portland is not a tombolo is correct I feel, as it is not - Chesil beach is. I reckon then that 'tied' island should be changed to 'tied island'. Do you reckon that we should state whether 'tied islands' are islands or peninsulas? I would err not to, as without a reference stating which group 'tied islands' are in, we cannot claim either. I think the intro should be changed to explicitly state 'tied island' not just island as it is now. Your thoughts? RossEnglish 21:49, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't think there's any difficulty in calling it a peninsula – we have oodles of definitions of island and of peninsula, and it is perfectly clear which of these it fits. It is only if (as at present) we try to violate these well-known definitions that we need to justify that with a further ref. Unless or until we can find such a ref, I think we should say something like: "Portland is a tied island, an island joined to the mainland by a shingle bar to form a peninsula. Chesil Beach is the shingle bar, considered to be either a tombolo or a long-shore drift bar". Where we need to mention it elsewhere we should call Portland a peninsula or a tied island according to context.
I suspect that the whole thing about it "not being a peninsula" arises from someone grabbing the "tied island" term and wrongly assuming that a tied island must be a kind of island. --Richard New Forest (talk) 08:50, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
I would agree with that sort of thing - I shall go through the article and change references to 'island' to either Portland, tied island or whatever is appropriate. I do think that this sentence is inaccurate though: "Chesil Beach is the shingle bar, considered to be either a tombolo or a long-shore drift bar" - a tombolo is just a spit that meets land at both ends, and can be caused by longshore drift, wave refraction or whatever. (I don't think that we could put longshore drift as no one knows how Chesil was formed, it could be longshore drift or something else.)
So this is what I think should be written:
"Portland is unusual as it is connected to the mainland at Abbotsbury by Chesil Beach, a tombolo which runs 29 kilometres (18 mi) north-west to West Bay. Portland is a 'tied island', and Chesil Beach is its tombolo, but is unusual as it was not formed due to wave refraction around Portland."
RossEnglish 14:55, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
That all looks good to me, and those edits look fine. I've added one more, which I think is consistent. --Richard New Forest (talk) 21:07, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Great! Much more satisfactory. Glad that was sorted - cheers for bringing it up =) RossEnglish 08:45, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Portland village stubs

The articles about the eight villages on Portland are all stubs - wouldn't it be better if they were combined into one article about all eight villages? This article would still be separate from the main article called "Isle of Portland".

I don't see much point in doing so. Nowhere else in the UK groups villages together, there is no precedent for doing so or how such a page would be formated. And why group them as Portland? Why not a group for all of them in the borough or the county? It's a rather arbitrary choice of geographical unit. I think the only thing this would achieve is discouraging people from expanding the articles properly. Joe D (t) 11:59, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Improvements

After spending alot of time improving the quality of the Weymouth article, I think that I shall now try and get Isle of Portland to the same standard over the next few months. I know Steinsky would like this article to become FA quality, so hopefully it will =). I would appreciate help in adding to the article, citing references, changing sentences around, improving tone, NPOV, and copyediting from all intersted users. Rossenglish 12:45, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

  • I have made a series of edits to the article recently, to try and include all topics mentioned in the WikiProject box at the top of the page. I have also reworded and altered the text in many minor ways to conform to WP:MOS. If anyone can spot any places in the article which need improving/standardising, please do! Some paragraphs have also been moved around the article. According to Wikipedia policy on WP:TRIVIA, I also moved the Trivia section's content to the history section, and altered the text to fit. Rossenglish 17:30, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Portland as climbing destination

Hi,

I could not find any reference to climbing in this article. Not only this island has hundreds of climbing routes, but it is important place in history of British climbing. Additionally it is a weekend destination of climbers from all over UK and London on a regular basis. Whereas the article mentions water sports, I would consider climbing as main sport cultivated on the island. Thanks 87.224.20.114 09:32, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Governance

There is a mistake in the section "Governance": Weymouth and Portland is NOT a metropolitan borough.

[edit] Portland Harbour

Is the Portland Harbour the 2nd largest harbour in the world or the 2nd man-made harbour in the world? In the article about Dorset, it says that the 2nd natural harbour in the world is possibly Poole Harbour. And another question: which is bigger—Portland Harbour or Poole Harbour? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.82.62.29 (talk) 17:18, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Portland harbour and the Fleet lagoon.
Portland harbour and the Fleet lagoon.
Definitely not the second largest harbour. Although it and the Fleet lagoon are a natural harbour, they have been artificially extended with breakwaters. Compared to other large natural harbours (Sydney, Poole, Rio, etc) Portland harbour is smaller. But it is very big for a man-made harbour, as the breakwaters are 3–4 km long, and if you include the Fleet lagoon, even larger.
Poole harbour is possibly the 2nd largest natural harbour in the world, and is probably 1.5 to 2 times the size of Portland harbour. I'm not sure Portland's is the 2nd largest man-made harbour though, so I've changed that to 'one of the largest'. Rossenglish (talk) 19:27, 5 February 2008 (UTC)