Talk:Islam in Bulgaria

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[edit] "Traditional attitude of the Christians in Bulgaria to Islam"

I deleted this section because it violated WP:NPOV. Please try to rewrite this in a more neutral way that presents the Muslim POV as well. I am aware that this kind of racism did occur, but I don't think it needs to be so long, perhaps just a paragraph? This article also needs sections. —Khoikhoi 02:28, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

The facts violated WP:NPOV???? Are you OK????--Injinera 13:34, 21 November 2006 (UTC)



Saying that Tumbul Mosque in Shumen is the second largest on the Balkans is just stupid and should be removed. - Mladen

[edit] Heavy pro-Muslim POV

Islam in Bulgaria was established with ethnic and religious cleansing of Bulgarian Christians over five centuries. Nothing of this is in the article. Therefore, it should be either deleted, or expanded to include this. Otherwise, it is misleading, and does not have a place in encyclopedia. Lantonov (talk) 07:47, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't agree. Most modern scholars say that Islam in Bulgaria was established by peaceful means. Most Rhodopean Muslims converted for financial benefits and there are some proofs that a small fraction of the Rhodopean population converted to Islam prior to the arrival of the ottomans. Claiming that Islam was established by sword in Rhodope is one of instruments of the communist regime to brainwash the population and to instill Bulgarian self-conciseness among the minorities. Our days this thesis (conversion to Islam by force) is supported only by populists, nazist and radical nationalists. We don't have any definite proofs that some definite settlements were subject to conversion by force and that latter the population was still confessing Islam. Actually we have such proofs for the contrary. The genocide in Rhodope during the Balkan Wars. Large number of Muslims were killed for not converting to Christianity. Most converted, but latter came back to Islam since the Bulgarian army had already withdrawn. It is known that some settlements didn't convert back to Islam. --Soft needed (talk) 16:15, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Read the works of Ivan Vazov. If you call this classic writer "populist, nazist, and radical nationalist", I do not see a point to discuss further anything with you. Lantonov (talk) 11:29, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
There is great difference between massacre and conversion. That's what I wanted to stress with the above example. If somebody kills your brother or child, forcing you to convert to other religion, you would probably convert to save yourself, but not believe in that religion and as soon as the danger is away you would probably return to your previous religion or at least never adopt the new religion in your heart. So that was my question - can you point any settlement that was forcedly converted to Islam and ever since its inhabitants remained Muslims. If you can't provide any explicit proofs that the current non-turkish Muslim population in Bulgaria was converted by force, then your thesis is just an assumption and does not necessarily reflect the reality. --Soft needed (talk) 12:01, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
That's why I told you to read Vazov. There are exactly described the way of the conversion, who done what, towns and villages converted, number of converted population, reasons for conversion, what happened after conversion, and so on. When you finish Vazov, you can start reading Zahari Stoyanov for much more exact details. Lantonov (talk) 12:06, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
I don't think everybody here has the time to read fiction, so if you have any proofs of certain settlements being converted and remained Muslim after a long period of time, please provide us with quotations and excerpts and I don't think that it will be hard to check whether these settlements still have Muslim population.
PS When talking about converting Rhodopean inhabitants from Christianity to Islam, I think that you should first provide proofs that these were once confessing Christianity. You know what am I talking about (if you know enough real history): there are no proofs that many of the Pomaks were once Christians. I will name several municipalities: Dospat, Satovcha, Syrnitsa. Were they once Christian? If yes, where are the archaeological artifacts that support that claim? Go to the museums in Smolyan, Blagoevgrad and Pazardzik and see if you could find anything. Go looking for churches or Christian graveyards and graves. You are doomed. You will fail to find anything, that points to Christianity. The very few Christians that live there, settled there just after the Balkan war. They were given the proprieties of the Pomaks, massacred by the Bulgarian army.
PS2 Before talking about Islam in Bulgaria and Muslims in Bulgaria, I offer you to first study the Islam and second study the history of the Pomaks, taking into account the facts, theories and data from the non-Bulgarian sources and from the Bulgarian NPOV sources. And now I will offer you some reading: "Българите мохамедани" - Стоян Райчевски, "Родопски властелини" - Николай Хайтов, "Загаснали огнища" - Владимир Арденски, "Капки от корена" - Владимир Арденски. It will be a good idea to try reading between the lines, but even if don't, you will still find pretty interesting facts. And after you have finished the reading and are ready to see the truth, I will show some cool stuff - some proofs of pre-ottoman Islam in Rhodope. Have a nice time reading the books and remember that official history is a tool of the politicians and isn't necessarily identical to the real one. --Soft needed (talk) 15:18, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
Ok, cool. You seem to know the history of the region. How about Chepino? I see that you know Bulgarian, so I invite you to read "В недрата на Родопите" [1] by Vazov, and tell me what you think about it, even in general, not specifically about Islamization. I will appreciate your opinion. Lantonov (talk) 16:40, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
Here it goes: Islam’s first contacts with the Balkan nations. If you don't have the time and will to read it all, just preview the conclusion: "This book is still short of a full-concluded research. However, it does shed some light into the truth. The Muslims have been living in the Balkan Peninsula long before than it was previously believed. Their first traces are to be found as far back as the 8th century. Their superior religious beliefs made the locals (the Balkan nations) embrace them openly. However, the short sighted and pragmatic politics of the European Christian kingdoms, feeling that they were loosing ground, fought back—the foundation of the future European politics was laid down. We will never have such good and cordial relations between the Muslims and the European countries anymore. The persecution that the Muslims suffered in the hand of the Christians during the 13th and 14th centuries made a great impact on the Balkan nations. This is the reason why we have such a rapid spreading of Islam in the peninsula once the Ottoman armies conquered it in the 14th century. Hopefully this will be a kind of challenge for further and better research in the future." You see - it is stupid to blindly claim that all Muslims in Bulgaria were forcedly converted to Islam. Most probably some were forced by the Turks, but not necessarily all. Cheers --Soft needed (talk) 11:35, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
I told you not rely on Vazov when talking about history. He writes fiction! The Ottomans never promoted Islam by force in Chepino. There are strong historical proofs that the Chepino Muslims converted voluntarily. --Soft needed (talk) 14:13, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
Ok, here is some more "fiction". This one is first-hand. Choose yourself to believe or not. --Lantonov (talk) 13:40, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Не съм имала още пет годинки, ага са прибили бубайка. Прибили са го гавазете [*] на Исен паше, Енуздерският. И то за какво — за нищо. В мечитя [*] бил задържен един негов аратлик и той рекъл да го оттърве, да не плачат дечинките му. И отървал го е, ала сетне ние сме останали сираци. Майка, за да ни изкути [*], ни е отвела у деда. Оттогава зафатили да ни викат не Ламбовски, ами Хусарови.

Ага бех малка, еднъж се бех заблела с други деца по двора. И както си играех, видех да дойде Мехмед, Исенпашовия син. Ие се плахнах и побегнах. Той се грабна след мене, зарука ме галено и ми фърли в нотите седем ли, осем ли дюкме. Йе се наведох, сбрах ги и пак фукнах. Отнесох дюкмете на майка, мислех, че ще й стане драго, пък тя се завайка и заплака:

— Оти, майчин, си ги зела? За лошо са, майчин, тия дюкме, лошо щем пати...

(И наистина след няколко дни дошла бедата. Малкото момиченце от Чангърдере (дн. Чепинци) завлекли в пашовия конак в Енуздере (дн. Елховец). Там тя стояла три месеца, докато намерят още едно „каматно” дете, та двете заедно да ги изпратят в Одрин).

Сетне научих как се е майка молила пашому да си ме пусне и как е несвесна търчала от баир на баир.

Нейса, по едно време доведоха в пашовия конак и друго отсурнато дете — Фатме Куцовска от Янева махало. Приготвиха ни и ни качиха двенкйге на едно муле и ни откараха в Едирне [*]. Там Исен паша ни продаде на един богат султански чилек — Мишур Ариф паша го зовеха. Мене продаде за петнайсет лири, оти бех по-загладенка и тежичка, и по-отворена бех, пък Фатмица — за девет лири.

Мишур Ариф ни провадаше на мехтеп [*], подхворлеше ни и по некой грош, ага му свършехме некоя работа. Йе му вапцвах папуцете, копарана [*] му държех диван-чепраз, кафица му носех, та че му и попевах буднок [*], кога ме нагодеше.

Изучих се там хубавичко да плетам и чорапе. За аскера на пашата ги плетехме.

Ала нашето тегло започна, кога Мишур паша ни проводи в неговия сарай в Еренкьой, зад Стамбол чек. Тогава балното [*] ни стана големо и насосано. Там ни командареше пашовицата Бехие. От нея орталъка бе проплакал. Най-много йе й слугувах, ала ней угода немаше — ката ден ме бъхтеше. Две други деца преди мене бе всакатила. И мене един ден храсна с папуц, та ми проби главата.

(Подучили слугите двете невръстни родопчанки да се оплачат в Цариград, в хюкюматя. И им помогнали една нощ да избягат).

Осем часа вървехме с пампор по морето. Най-сетне стигнахме в Стамбол и там с питане найдохме хюкюматя. Заведоха ни при кадията. Той се зачуди, ката видя кръвта по моята глава от бахтането.

— Тц, тц —вика — как може тъй да се бие чуздо дете? Ала до вечерта дойде и пашовицата Бехие, Заради нас дошла. С нея беха старата й работница Нина и кятипина [*] й Хюсни. Като я виде, кадията се ядоса:

— Защо — казва — така си отбавила това дете? В хапуса [*] ще те пратим, ако му стане нещо от твоя урсузлук. Трето дете вече пребиваш.

И пак си ни даде на пашовицата. Пък тя се държи за главата и кълне:

— Ох, ох — вика: — душмане съм гледала.

И щом се върнахме в Еренкьой, Бехие най-напред ни взе парите, дето осем години бехме сбирали. Йе имах двайсе и пет лири. Пашовицата ми бе давала лири да говя през рамазан заради нея. Тя се криеше и плюскаше създармо и халво, пък ей се свивах по цел ден от глад.

. . . Ага си дойдах тука, в нашето село, само потят нах деловия двор бех заборила, всичко друго си помнех; и комшийските дуварие наоколо, и небето над дома. Подзиме бе, всичко наоколо бе разшарено — като да бе златно. Толкова бе каматно сичко, толкова ми бе драго.

Майка беше ме отписала. Немаше я и у дома, ага си дойдох — пак бе отишла да се трепе по Исенпашовите ниви. Порукаха я и ага ме видя, не може да ме познае. Родната ми майчица не може да ме познае — толкова бех изтьоглила. Тогава заплаках — добалне ми за майка, добалне ми за без време загубения бубайко, добалне ми и за мене си. . .

Разказала: X. ХУСАРОВА


Thanks for Stoyan Raychevski. Very good book, should be advertised more to be read as widely as possible. Lantonov (talk) 06:34, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
I read some from the above book, and, frankly, it sounds to me as some kind of religious propaganda by, at least, its tone and sweeping conclusions: "the superior (Muslim) religious beliefs", "the short sighted and pragmatic politics of Christian kingdoms", "the persecution of Muslims suffered in the hands of Christians", etc. That said, however, I will not be surprised if most, if not all facts in it, are true. Taking in account the situation of the Balkans at that time, most of that fits in, in particular, it is very possible, even unavoidable, that some Bulgars, Slavs, or Greeks, has become Muslims at a very early time, as early as 8th or 9th centuries, long before the Turks came. It is well known that Byzantines warred with the Arabs at that time, and some of the Arabs settled for some shorter or longer periods on the Balkans. It is well known, for instance, that Slavs in Pelopones used the help of Arabs against Byzantium in 806. Given the forceful imposition of Christianity in Bulgaria by Boris I, there was deep resentment against it in places. Half of the boyls (bolyars) staged an uprising against Christianity, and Boris crushed it by having them and their kin beheaded. Some of the Bulgars never accepted Christianity, sticking to their pagan beliefs. I can easily imagine that those people (and also later the Bogomils) will accept easily Islam. It is also well-known, that in Bosnia, in which Bogomils were a majority, the Turks did not have great problems in converting the population to Islam, and most of that conversion was non-violent. I can accept also that most of the Rhodopes conversion was non-violent, although it does not mean that it was not forced: there was some reason to accept Islam, and this reason is surely not that Islam is a "superior" religious belief (please, do not take this as an offense, I respect very much people who believe in God, whatever Its name: Allah, Christ, Yehova, or Buddha) but it is a complex of economic and political reasons. By economic and political reasons I mean something different than the author of the book means. People were simply forced by circumstances. If they were Muslims, they would have greater benefits in the new Muslim state than if they were not. So it can be very well argued that the majority of people took Islam primarily to conform to the system: to make better earnings, to have they and their children go to higher levels of society, and such mundane but important reasons. There is also the deeply rooted resentment against Christianity which we must take into account. So nothing surprising if some Bulgars were never Christian but took Islam from Turks or Arabs (although I have yet to see facts of an Arab to Bulgar transfer).
Can you read 8th century Arabic script? I can show you something. What about a Rhodopean mosque, built in 255 AH (768 AD)? Or Islamic graves from 8th-10th century? --Soft needed (talk) 13:33, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

The author of this book (most probably an Albanian) made also some factual errors. For instance, about Bogomils. Those came from Armenia (which was some time under Byzantine, some time under Persian rule), Paulicians, Manicheans, and settled first in Bulgaria (not in Romania, as they author of the book says). They were persecuted by Bulgarian and Byzantine tsars as heretics and many migrated to the West where most settled in Bosnia and some went further to Northern Italy, and Southern France where they were called Cathars or Albigensians. Lantonov (talk) 12:44, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I can't read Arabic, but I can accept a fact that there is such early Mosque, and graveyard in Rhodopes. Year 255 by the Muslim calendar is 869 AD (still very early). It remains to be proven that it is Bulgar, and not Arabic. Lantonov (talk) 13:37, 21 December 2007 (UTC)