Talk:Isabella of France
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[edit] Faithful Representation of Isabella's Features?
I have recently been reading Isabella and the Strange Death of Edward II (2003) by Paul Doherty. On page 11 of this book, Mr. Doherty states the second son of Edward II of England and Isabella of France , John of Eltham, Earl of Cornwall is buried at Westminster Abbey. He states Queen Isabella's, "face and striking features are faithfully represented by a carved statue which decorates John of Eltham's tomb..."
I began to search the Internet to see if I could find a photograph of the tomb of John of Eltham, Earl of Cornwall and the statue of Isabella of France at Westminster Abbey. I can find no mention of the burial of John of Eltham, 9th Earl of Cornwall, at Westminster Abbey on the Abbey's official website, or any other website I can find that claims to provide a list of those buried at the Abbey. I have emailed the Abbey librarian to clarify this and ask if there are any sources or publications that have a photograph of Isabella's statue.
I was wondering if anyone has a photograph of this statue that is in the public domain, or if someone can pop over to Westminster Abbey to take a photograph (if that is allowed, of course.) If a photograph of a statue that has a good representation of Isabella's actual features were added to her Wikipedia page, I think that would be grand.
My Wiki-interest in this subject was piqued by reading the disussion page of Edward, the Black Prince ,who was the grandson of Isabella of France and son of Philippa of Hainault (Philippa was Isabella's daughter-in-law.) Some people seem to think Philippa of Hainault had African ancestry because her son Edward of Woodstock was called the "Black Prince" and there was a physical description of Philippa of Hainault given by a contemporary, the Bisop of Exeter, probably Walter de Stapledon , that purports to described Philippa as having skin that was "brown all over" and a nose that was flat and broad, hair that was "blue black" and eyes that were "blackish brown". (The earliest printed account of Edward of Woodstock's sobriquet states it refers to the color of his armor, not the color of his skin or any other part of him.)
After many Wiki-adventures traipsing through the ancestry of Philippa of Hainault (details of which are on her discussion page) I can find no evidence any of her ancestors had anything close to an African connection, although I think I vaguely remember something about one or more of her female ancestors going on Crusade...hmmmmm.
If you look at the page of one of the other sons of Philippa of Hainault and Edward III of England , John of Gaunt, 1st Duke of Lancaster , who was a full sibling of Edward the Black Prince you will see a painting of John of Gaunt which, if accurate, indicates he had quite dark hair and eyes. This is proof that at least one of the children of Philippa of Hainault had some dark features.
My interest in Isabella's features stems from these discussions on the other pages, because there is some evidence she had "dark" ancestry. Isabella's mother, Joan I of Navarre , was said to have "Arabic" features, which Isabella inherited. Modern Navarre is in the Basque region of Spain, which would be a much more plausible ancestral connection to Moors or people of African descent. Isabella was said to have inherited the blond hair of her father Philip IV of France and the "Arabic" features of her mother. My source for this is the same as the one listed above for the location of Isabella's statue in Westminster Abbey.
In essense, what I am saying is there is more evidence of "dark" ancestry in the paternal line of Edward, the Black Prince . Everyone else seems to be arguing there is "dark" ancestry in his maternal line.
I'm not trying to prove or disprove anything. I have no cultural axe to grind. It is pure intellectual curiosity. I want to know what Isabella looked like because she is such a fascinating historical figure, as is her husband Edward II. (OK, I admit this started as research on a novel in which one character is very loosely based upon Edward II. No Isabella-type figure appears in my novel.)
My own ancestry is Irish, British, and Welsh, so there you go.
Jsternsp 12:42, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
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- A source inside Westminster Abbey has responded quickly and comprehensively:
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- Yes, John of Eltham is buried in Westminster Abbey. His magnificent alabaster tomb is now in St Edmund’s chapel. It is thought that this monument had been moved from the chapel of St Edward the Confessor, displaced by the tomb of a later king. There is no inscription on the monument. The recumbent effigy shows John dressed in armour carrying a large shield. Around the base of the tomb are carved figures of kings and queens, to represent members of his family. However, none have coats of arms underneath, as weepers do on some others Abbey tombs, to show who the figures are meant to represent. Obviously Queen Isabella would be one of these queens shown but it would only be conjecture as to identification of her statue. So I am afraid there is no statue at the Abbey which can definitely be proved to be Isabella.
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- I will send the Westminster Abbey source the cite from the Doherty book. Maybe that will help.
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- Jsternsp 14:31, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
- Read up the ancestry in the article on Philippa of Hainault.Her "darkness" if she was really as dark as the bishop described would have derived from Kuthen of the Cumens,who belonged to a nomadic Western Asian tribe of Turkic origin.Not African.As to one of her ancestors having gone on a crusade, how does that indicate African ancestry? The Saracens weren't sub-Saharan.The bishop also said her hair was "not uncomely" which probably meant silky black and smooth like most Asians.--jeanne (talk) 13:59, 11 April 2008 (UTC)--jeanne (talk) 13:59, 11 April 2008 (UTC)--jeanne (talk) 13:59, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Braveheart4.jpg
Image:Braveheart4.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.
Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.
If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you. ==Does anyone have a precise birthdate for Isabella?Between May and November is rather vague.14:01, 11 April 2008 (UTC)jeanne (talk) BetacommandBot (talk) 04:14, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
