Talk:Interurban

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The original article was a hodge-podge of lifted and disjointed and misspelled copy taken from other sources and just dumped on this page! I have attempted a massive clean-up but it still needs work. I am not an expert in this subject. I created an article about Handley (Fort Worth) which had an interurban service, and that is how I originally arrived here! I then took on the job of trying to make sense out of a total mess. If you are an expert on this subject and a writer, take another look at the article. I don't know whether interurban and light rail have all been mixed up together - it looks like it with regards to the entry for Australia. MPLX/MH 17:06, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The Australia section appears to be a different usage of the term, just as tram can mean different things in different places. --SPUI (talk) 19:09, 5 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I deleted the Australia section, and added some more about Canada. The thigns described in Australia are a collection of modern light rail, commuter rail and heavy rail, and not the historical interurbans this article refers to. Simkid

Are the things in Australia called interurbans? --SPUI (talk) 12:53, 25 May 2005 (UTC)
I've never heard them reffered to as interurbans. I HAVE heard them ocasionally reffered to as subways, or light rail, but my understanding is that they are really heavy commuter rail. That said, I live in Canada and really don't know much about the Australian commuter lines. The main reason I deleted them is that the article refers to historical systems, and the Australian lines certainly don't fall into that catagory. --Simkid (talk)
Different countries use totally different terminology. From [1] it looks like the term there refers to commuter trains, and the article was correct. It might be best to turn this into a disambiguation, move the streetcar stuff to interurban streetcar, and merge the Australian stuff into intercity rail. I've restored the deleted content, and may do that if I get a chance. --SPUI (talk) 00:17, 26 May 2005 (UTC)
I've done that, though intercity rail is now a bit of a mess. To link here, use interurban streetcar or radial railway. --SPUI (talk) 05:44, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

If you look at the Electric Railway Dictionary of 1911 you will find some definitions of EQUIPMENT that divide passenger cars into three groups.

(1) City Cars (2) Suburban Cars (3) Interurban Cars

that defined the type of service the equipment was designed for, not the length of the line or the fact that it ran between two urban areas. By the revisions of today the city cars of the Cleveland Railway that were used to develop the suburbs would qualify as interurban streetcars along with the Lorain & Elyria line in Ohio and even the Newark & Zanesville and the longest push yet is the Victory Park Railway ...all of which used city cars as defined by the industry. In 1893 the Sandusky Milan and Norwalk Electric Railway recieved equipment that was above and beyond city car design and began the true INTERURBAN era in Ohio.

I do not think interurban streetcar was a term the industry used

Do you think interurban streetcar line would be a better place for this? --SPUI (talk) 23:50, 18 November 2005 (UTC)
In U.S. usage, the term interurban railroad was the most common term. — JonRoma 19:23, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

The term most commonly used was Interurban Electric Railway.

Contents

[edit] Rename?

I think "Interurban streetcar" is a poor name for this article. In a project where Use Common Names is one of the prime naming conventions, this article has ended up being named something almost never used.

Any suggestions as to a better name? Does a pointer to Australian intercity rail (that could simply be a {{otheruses}} marker at the top of the article) really signify we shouldn't just have this article at Interurban? Taking your suggestions ... —Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 05:33, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the existing name, Interurban streetcar is a poor name for the article — it doesn't represent a name ever in common use for the particular subject matter. What is considered by most scholars to be the definitive work on the subject is
Hilton, George W.; John F. Due (1960). The Electric Interurban Railways in America. Stanford: Stanford University Press. 
Accordingly, I suggest the most suitable article title as Electric interurban railway. — JonRoma 06:02, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
  • I agree. To me "Interurban Streetcar" refers to the motive power and rolling stock of an Interurban Railway. But "electric" should not be part of its name as not all interurbans were electric; some were powered (at least initially) by steam dummies. One in Michigan never electrified. --RedJ 17 13:04, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I was bold and just moved it to Interurban after looking at what linked to that page; all the links meant this, not the Australian term. We do primary topic disambiguation when one meaning of a term overwhelms the usage of the other; I think that especially counts in this case, where the other usage doesn't even have its own article, but just redirects to a page named differently. —Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 13:45, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Nice work Matthew on the reorganization of the page. I think the addition of a definition is good as Hilton and Due devote a lot of time to defining exactly what an interurban is. One thing that this page and its related pages now face is grammar revision or hyphenators. I see that the list of interurbans has been named a list of "inter-urbans," a name that anyone who is familar with interurban railways in the US would not have given it. --RedJ 17 18:08, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I've moved that list back to List of interurbans, where I originally placed it. User:Phronima, who moved it, lives in England and is probably unaware that "Interurban" is the commonly used term in North America and has a better defined meaning.
I plan some further cleanup here too, to present a more coherent story of these lines (while avoiding too much discussion of individual systems). I'm in two minds about the inclusion of European systems; I think I'll have to read up on the nature of the two formerly linked here (and now in List of interurbans) to see how well they fit under Hilton & Due's criteria. In Western Europe, regulation generally placed such restrictions on street running that only wholly urban trams (streetcars) did so. —Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 18:24, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV

I think that such tramways as New Jersey's new light rail lines and the Portland light rail systems should be considered interurbans, as well as the San Diego and Los Angeles systems. That's why I put a POV tag on there. 68.32.48.42 02:13, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

If I could add that true interurbans did a lot more then carry passengers ... they did package, LCL freight and car-load lots. The progressive ones sold power, ran amusement parks and did all sorts of promotional exercises to generate fares. A true interurban would have a hard time operating with streetcar equipment.

Dennis 70.39.33.111 13:13, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Rather than adding a tag, how about helping improve the article? It sounds like you (is this two people or one?) know a good bit about the subject. I agree with you about a lot of this.
Certainly some modern light rail projects could be considered interurban - those that are bigger than just streetcar systems, at least.
Not all interurbans ran freight. Most if not all did express; the vast majority, I believe, did LCL freight, while a good proportion did carload freight and interchange with railroads. In the latter case, it depended on whether the interurban was built to a standard that would allow railroad freight cars, and whether the laws and charters they operated under permitted them to carry carload freight (many did not). It would probably be fair to say that in the overwhelming majority of cases, interurbans that did not carry carload freight did not choose not to, but could not. It's also certainly the case that the survivors of the interurban sector were almost universally freight carriers, with the exception of a few that became very busy commuter routes.
Most interurbans did not run with streetcar equipment, but they ran with cars that owed a lot to streetcar technology. Interurbans were larger, faster, equipped with MU equipment fairly commonly, and borrowed a fair amount from railroads as well - to a greater or lesser degree. Some interurbans were closer along the continuum towards being fullsize railroads than others; many of those were railroad-owned. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 23:44, 1 July 2006 (UTC)
"Interurbans" were not light rail transit by any stretch of imagination. The use of this term for LRT lines is not appropriate, and should be resisted. Ldemery 23:29, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] notice of pending section on British Columbia/Alberta lines

A bit shocked not to see these in the Canada section; on the other hand I'm getting use to seeing sites on "Canada" only talking about Ontario and Quebec, which is par for the course in this country (and they wonder why the so-called "regions" are "alienated"). The BC Electric Railway Company interurban and streetcar system was very important in the development of Vancouver and Victoria, and is the foundation of the current crown corp BC Hydro; think there may have also been an interurban line around Nelson-Trail in the West Kootenay, run by West Kootenay Power and Light but I'm not sure; both cities had electrified streetcar systems but most intercity rail lines around there were CPR/steam. Anyway, no time right now but just notice of a pending section or article on the BC systems; if anyone from BC is reading this let me know if you want to help.Skookum1 19:58, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Good; I personally know little about the Canadian lines overall so that section has been left as I found it. Note that the individual lines should have articles (see List of interurbans) and that the section here should only be an overview. It doesn't have to list every line, just give a good overview of the history. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 07:34, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Everett-Seattle-Tacoma interurban line

Another glaringly-missing line; will do my best on this from available on-line resources but I'm not a Seattlite; I'll see who I can enlist.Skookum1 20:04, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Again, note that full histories should go in individual lines' articles, but please, feel free! Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 07:35, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Title

The title of this article "should" be either Interurban Electric Railway or "Electric Interurban Railway;" it's clear from the historic record that the label "Interurban" was understood as a one-word abbreviation either or both.

Also, it is true that "not all interurbans were electrified." But very few enterprises were promoted (or considered themselves) as "interurbans" and did not use electric traction. This fact should be mentioned in the title but should not determine the choice of title. Ldemery 03:51, 22 August 2006 (UTC) 03:50, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Certainly the term started out as one of those two, IMO, but it wasn't long before it just became 'interurban'. Wikipedia generally uses the commonly used term for article naming, for one thing because it makes linking easier; articles generally won't have the text 'Interurban Electric Railway' in them, but they will say "... was an interurban built between ...". Those titles should be linked to this one, though.
I suspect in virtually every case, interurbans that weren't electric intended to be electric, but weren't. In some cases, the money ran out and gasoline cars were used; in other cases, the electrification was removed but the line continued to operate. This is certainly the case with the lines I'm familiar with. Matthew Brown (Morven) (T:C) 00:51, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Modern light rail as interurbans?

Is it original research to use the term for newer lines like Portland's MAX that undeniably meet the criteria? There is at least one source ([2]) that calls it one but it might not be a reliable source. There is a similar source ([3] - but possibly more reliable - is Railway Age reliable?) that calls the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail an interurban. --NE2 08:58, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, on at least one of the maps, the Environmental Impact Statement for the Portland line did refer to it "Electric Interurban Light Rail". Really, modern light rail systems share a lot of features with Interurbans (i.e. on-street running but also at higher speeds elsewhere). Jason McHuff 03:53, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Also, the Westside extension (now a part of the MAX Blue Line) uses a portion of a former interurban line, including some old station sites--Orenco, Quatama and Elmonica I believe. Jason McHuff 05:15, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
"Modern light rail" lines are by no stretch of imagination "interurbans," and use of this term should be avoided. Ldemery 23:31, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
I'd agree. Interurbans are historical. Today's railways that fulfill similar functions, such as light rail, are of a different period. --RedJ 17 03:02, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Suggestions to improve from "B-Class"

This "B-Class" article has some "A-Class" features, and I thought I'd throw in my two cent's worth about how the overall classification could be improved to "A-Class."

--OK, this is a "pet concern" of mine, but:

We who edit English Wikipedia articles should keep in mind that English pages are likely to be the "primary" reference for many, many people whose first language is something other than English. We should therefore work to make pages such as this (which at the moment is available "only" in German, Dutch, Japanese, Russian and Swedish in addition to English) as "reader-friendly" as possible.

In other words, "pariochalism" on English-language pages should be avoided. We should avoid "Americanisms" and use terminology likely to be easily and widely understood. After all, U.S. and Canadian interurbans do command a "following" overseas - not a "large" readership, but a readership nonetheless.

--the "first graf"

"An interurban, also called a radial railway in parts of Canada, is a streetcar line running between urban areas or from urban to rural areas. The term was mostly used in North America. The lines were mainly electrified in an era when steam railroads had not yet adopted electricity to any large degree."

This needs work. How about:

"Interurban lines are a form of land transport that incorporate elements of railway and tramway practice. The "typical" U.S. interurban operated between urban areas, serving towns and rural areas in between. It used technology based on railway and urban tramway practice. The most notable tramway practice was large-scale use of electric traction in an era when few railways were electrified.

"In the U.S. and parts of Canada, the term "interurban" became the common one-word abbreviation for "interurban electric railway" or "electric interurban railway" at an early date. The term "radial railway" was also used in parts of Canada. The term "interurban," whether borrowed directly or translated, was seldom used in other countries.

"The various U.S. and Canadian lines described as interurbans had distinctive sets of characteristics. These were not typical of other electric railways or tramways. Interurbans were distinct from railways, metros, urban or suburban tramways, and from current applications of light rail transit. There were relatively few overseas examples of electric railways or tramways built after U.S. - Canadian "interurban" practice."

Just a suggestion, and a starting point.

--"This article deals mainly with the interurban in North America."

Um, why? Why not make an attempt to "compare and contrast" with "elsewhere?" I'd be willing at least to "start" to take this on. . .

(see also "first graf," above)

--"North America"

Um, why does this section "precede" rather than follow "Definition of 'Interurban'" and "Interurban technology"?

--Definition of "Interurban"

Kudos to the editor who wrote this. There are some things that "should" be added - some of which are in Hilton and Due - but the overall quality is very high.

--Passenger service

Hilton and Due would be a good source to start.

Enough for now. Ldemery 23:27, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Interurban definition

Heavy rail with no grade crossings is NOT interurban, correct??? DCDuring 07:46, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

If so, the New York, Westchester and Boston Railway was no more an interurban than the LIRR. Its equipment and track was of a standard equal to or better than the New Haven. It WAS predominantly freight and exclusively electric, but not street operations at all, ever. DCDuring 07:54, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Move Europe

I suggest that the section dealing with Europe be moved to intercity rail or tram. After all the author of the section on German "interurbans" claims that they weren't really interurbans at all. It shouldn't be here. --RedJ 17 00:49, 13 November 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Isle of Man

Isn't the Isle of Man Electric system (consisting of 2 lines) an interurban?

Exile (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 21:17, 7 June 2008 (UTC)