Talk:Intellectual freedom

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[edit] AS IF! Authors Support Intellectual Freedom

I added this link but another person removed it saying in history is was "dead." I test it even now and it is not dead. Further, while it is merely a lowly blog, this particular blog draws the attention of and includes the writings of dozens of authors on the topic of Intellectual Freedom. I say it should be included.

What do others think? Thank you. --SafeLibraries 01:08, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia guidelines on external links includes under "Links to be avoided": "11. Links to blogs and personal webpages, except those written by a recognized authority." I don't know that this blog passes the threshhold, but I will leave it for someone else to remove or debate the inclusion of it. -- Pastordavid 08:52, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Controversy section

ElKevbo has removed the Controversy section saying, "(a) this is not about the ALA and (b) it's undue weight to give to one comment made to one editorial)."

First, the first sentence says how the ALA defines intellectual freedom, so the statement "this is not about the ALA" would be misleading.

Second, the claim about undue weight given to one editorial is irrelevant because a) the editorial is in the ALA's own publication, making it quite weighty in this area, b) the editorial is just one example and instead of cutting it out others should be found on the theory that we are trying to build an encyclopedic article rather then cutting it out on the theory that it is undue, and c) I have just added another source, this one by Nat Hentoff, a major critic of the ALA in this particular area. So controversy clearly exists, it clearly is encyclopedic, and it is clearly compliant with wiki goals and policies to include the controversy. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling 03:34, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

The definition used for this article happens to be the ALA's. Change it to some other well-recognized definition if you'd like. This article is not about the ALA and adding criticism specific to the ALA to this article is inappropriate. It's perfectly appropriate for the ALA article, however, just not this one. --ElKevbo 05:38, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
I learned from ElKevbo's gamesmanship when he used repeated vandalism by multiple anonymous newbies to get my vandalism reverts considered a violation of the 3 revert rule and I was blocked for 8 hours. This time I will be getting help. It may take me a while to figure it out but I'll be going by the book. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling 06:40, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
I don't appreciate your baseless accusations but you're welcome to ask the opinions of other editors on this content dispute. --ElKevbo 06:42, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Not baseless: "User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling reported by User:ElKevbo (Result: 8h)." --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling 07:22, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Right, because that's how long it too to sort it out before the block was lifted. If you want to continue along these lines, do so elsewhere; this has nothing to do with this encyclopedia article. --ElKevbo 07:25, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
It has to do with your untrustworthness in editing this article by cutting out a reference from the ALA and from Nat Hentoff while claiming in history you are doing so because I was the one who added them. You said it was baseless. I showed the source proving it was not. Now you admit it was not baseless by providing a reason for what you did. Since you removed my edits in violation of wiki policy, and since you have revealed your untrustworthiness regarding your statements which you implicitly admit are false, and since the section is not just about the ALA but about the library associations of several nations that have spoken out on the issue of intellectual freedom, I will restore your removals as the vandalism they are, and continue to find ways to help stop your personal vendetta against me that now includes prima facia lies you admit you made. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling 07:39, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
For the second time, take the non-article-related discussion elsewhere. My own Talk page would likely be the best place.
Second, I've requested a third opinion on this content dispute. We'll see where that goes and pursue additional dispute resolution as appropriate.
Finally, don't label my edits vandalism. It's a simple content dispute - nothing more, nothing less. I think your edits are wrong, of course, but even I won't label them vandalism. --ElKevbo 07:50, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Third opinion

A request was made by ElKevbo for a third opinion. This is good. However, the wording of the request miscasts the dispute.

  • Intellectual freedom - Talk:Intellectual freedom: Should this article include a section labeled "Criticism" containing criticism of the American Library Association's stance on intellectual freedom? 07:47, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

The question should not be whether the article should contain criticism of the ALA's view of intellectual freedom. On its face, that's irrelevant to this article and such a section should not be included. Rather, the question is should the article contain a controversy section including the views of intellectual freedom denials by the library associations of numerous countries, including the ALA of the USA, as evidenced by wiki worthy sources including the ALA itself, and should one person repeatedly make wholesale removals of another wikipedian's work without seeking consensus and just because of the identity of the other wikipedian, particularly where the Talk page reveals an admission of misinformation by the person consistently removing the other wikipedian's work and reveals prior use of gamesmanship by that person. Long question, but more honest and accurate. Even in the stating of his original question in his request for a third opinion, this person has a habit of turning words to change the facts or disclose only the partial truth and promote a POV. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling 08:35, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Elkevbo that this article is only tangentially about the ALA -- the topic, and thus focus, is on the concept of Intellectual Freedom. Comments about a controversy within the ALA may belong on the ALA article (but that is a decision to be hashed out there). Further, LegitimateAndEvenCompelling seems to have a fairly explicit POV (given the safelibraries.org connection), and he/she may want to think about the conflict of interest involved in editing articles such as this. I am removing the controversies section and watchlisting this page. -- Pastordavid 08:39, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Speaking of POV and conflict of interest, may I say this page was created by a leading member of the ALA. Even he did not remove the Controversy section since it was created months ago. I find it unusual that my placement of intellectual freedom controversies worldwide reported in the news only a day or so ago on the intellectual freedom page is questioned as POV and coflict of interest, which it is not--my safelibraries experience only means I am aware of the controversy in the first place--but the creation of this page by the ALA itself combined with the obvious ALA slant goes unnoticed, as well as the removal of my work by an IP address that maps to the ALA (not ElKevbo). I need help. Can somebody help here? How can I get help? There is a clear problem here. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling 08:51, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Pastordavid, your post time is only 4 minutes after mine. In 4 minutes, did you have the time to read and respond specifically to me, or did you not see my response when you replied. Thanks. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling 09:03, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Modify the page. Tone down the ALA references. You could nominate the article for deletion but I don't think it would pass as this is an important topic and the article itself is not unsalvageable. I'd even suggest expanding the article as appropriate for the topic and available references, many of which would presumably come from other organizations and persons. I would guess the AAUP may have something to say about this issue as it seems to be very closely related to academic freedom. Would there be anything about this topic in any of the UN's documents (I'm thinking there might be a human rights angle with this issue)? How about a US Constitutional angle?
I reserve judgement on whether or not there is a conflict of interest on the part of editors allegedly associated with the ALA - this is not the ALA article and if those editors are indeed associated with the ALA then one must assume they are well versed in this particular subject. It's not a simple issue and there is the potential for a conflict of interest but I'm not sure they really need to be discussed right now. I'd rather the article simply be improved and if there does emerge a clear pattern of skewing the article or editing with a particular bias then we'll deal with it when it happens.
If you'd like to pursue the conflict of interest issues, you might want to start here. I'd be interested to see where it goes as you may have a valid concern. --ElKevbo 09:06, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
L&EvenC, yes, I did read your response ... actually, I had already written what I had to say, and did not see anything in your comment that would make me change my opinion. I still think that the content in question -- an internal ALA controversy -- belongs in an article on the ALA, not in this article.
I absolutely think it would be a great idea to expand this article, including more than the ALA reference, and would encourage you to do so. But the only ALA "slant" that I see right now is that an ALA definition is used.
As to the COI of other editors ... that may be true, I don't know, and don't have the time to investigate it. Your COI popped right out at me. COI does not mean, for me, that one shouldn't edit ... rather, it should make us cautious in being strident in POV editing, and being aware of our own CsOI (we all have them) should make us all careful about making sure that we aren't pursuing a POV instead of facts. -- Pastordavid 09:14, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the third opinion, PastorDavid! I'll be sure to stop back by the requests for third opinion and pass along the good karma by offering my services. --ElKevbo 09:16, 4 March 2007 (UTC)


No, no, I'm not complaining about that (conflict of interest). Pastordavid raised it, about me, but I did not raise it. Your suggestion to expand the page is excellent. If it were already expanded, my edits would have fit right it. Partly because the page is so sparse right now did alarm bells go off, I suppose. But we are encouraged to add to wikipedia. So I added. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling 09:17, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Pastordavid, I challenge you to attempt to add this to the ALA page. See what happens. That page is more closely watched and cleaned by the ALA than this page. By the way, you brushed off the grooming the ALA gives this page. Remember, this is wikipedia, not ala.org. --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling 09:24, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
As to adding the material to the ALA page, I said that it may belong there. Quite frankly, I don't know enough about the issues involved to make a decision one way or the other about that. However, whether or not it is on that page is irrelevent to whether or not it is included in this article -- to include it here because other editors don't want it there would make this article a POV fork of the ALA article, rather than an article on intellectual freedom. I did comment on the possible CsOI of other editors, although I apologize if it appeared that I brushed off your concern ... there are, as ElKevbo pointed out, avenues for pursuing that question. -- Pastordavid 09:38, 4 March 2007 (UTC)