Talk:Indoctrination
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In regards to: "Instruction in the basic principles of science, in particular, can not properly be called indoctrination[citation needed], in the sense that the fundamental principals of science call for critical self-evaluation and skeptical scrutiny of one's own ideas." - the "[citation needed]" should be removed because this statement is /prima facie/, or self-evident - It is its' own support, it is an axiom. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.15.122.87 (talk) 21:48, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
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I have removed the link to islam on this page- I'm not islamic myself, but I reckon that this link was a bit POV.
Caveat: improve this entry. Enlarge it. Disambiguate it. Make it deeper, wiser, better. But suppressed text will soon reappear in red.
User:Andries posts "Let's make indoctrination a serious article." But he suppresses the following text:
- "But the aims and techniques of indoctrination can still be assessed."
What reading of that sentence could construe it as insufficiently neutral for Wikipedia? Why shouldn't suppressed text in the article appear in red? Who forbids this text? Who forbids this format? Wetman 21:41, 21 Jun 2004 (UTC)
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- Well, how do you know that the above sentence is true? Do you have references for all the techniques of indoctrination? May be somebody uses a novel indoctrination technique that has not been described and that you had not thought of. Andries 06:22, 22 Jun 2004 (UTC)
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- The point being that "the aims and techniques of indoctrination may not be assessed." This is not true in an open and neutral discussion. --Wetman 06:47, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Indoctrinating Science?
How can someone be indoctrinated into a system that is founded on critical thinking and that everything we know could be wrong? Quantum Burrito 00:12, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
AFAIK indoctrination is a normal term for a basic introduction to the principles of a scientific field (see wiktionary and others). Remember the term indoctrination is not always perjorative. SociableLiberal 19:21, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
There might be some NPOV in this article. In particular, the links in the Political Indoctrination section link to a page named "Homosexuals brainwashing our children in elementary schools", and are obviously politically loaded. A less controversial subject should be choosen, such as examples stemming from totalitarian regimes.
[edit] Tidying up definitions, NPOV, etc.
Text moved here:
Religious indoctrination is a subject of academic interest. An upcoming volume, The Costs of Autonomy: Personal Essays on the Morality of Religious Indoctrination is planned to analyze the effects of religious indoctrination on academics.
Reason: until the book is actually published this is not encyclopedic. Once it's published let's have a link or reference.
More text moved here:
An example of the use of political indoctrination on children is seen in It's Elementary[1], a teacher training video[2] by Academy Award winner Debra Chasnoff and Helen Cohen.[3] It illustrates children undergoing political indoctrination in schools across the country showing real examples of school activities, faculty meetings, and classroom discussions.
Reason: I disagree with User:LegitimateAndEvenCompelling, because to criticise the teaching of particular values as indoctrination (in the perjorative sense) is already POV. Teaching values I approve of is socialisation or parenting; teaching values I disapprove of is indoctrination. Or do you have a source for an objectively measurable definition? As such, if we want to collect examples of indoctrination we have to cite a notable or credible source who said it was indoctrination and make it clear that this is a matter of opinion. massresistance.org is neither notable nor credible; on the other hand, Jerry Falwell would do, as would the New York Times. The video you referenced is a teacher training video; who said it was indoctrination apart from massresistance.org? By contrast, the Jesus Camp documentary was an award-winning (therefore notable) programme presenting the activities of the camp as indoctrination.
I haven't checked out the single external link yet, from the name I suspect it may be very POV. We really have to be careful with the links in this article.
I have also tidied up the definitions and added some clarification of my own.
I am planning to continue working on this article, including hunting for suitable sources to cite. The criticism section still needs work and references. A section on political indoctrination is sorely needed, it should probably be the biggest section of the article. I am working on this. Watch this space! SociableLiberal 19:19, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Jesus Camp=Indoctrination?
As a christian who has been in many congragations I have to dissagree on the putting an equal=sign on Jesus Camp and indoctrination. However any athiest feels that anybody who mentions christianity to their child is indoctrinating them.
I do believe though, that Freemasonary would be a better an example of indoctrination. Here is a group who refuses members to ask any questions whatsoevere, have to prove that they are loyal to all beliefs put forth etc. But we all know what'd happen if anybody tried to edit the page and put an equal=sign on freemasonary and indoctrination as oppose to Jesus Camp, don't we? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.164.92.21 (talk) 12:59, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Freemasonry=Belief in Higher Power. Look it up. /discussion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.72.117.38 (talk) 00:21, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
