Talk:Illegal immigration in India

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[edit] POV

The article in its entirety (as it stands now) is a laundry list of allegations, reports from "Indian media"/intelligence, rather than any neutral third party sources. I've tagged it as POV and will edit it soon to make it NPOv. --Ragib 04:17, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

You have done a good job. --Bhadani (talk) 18:59, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Bhadaniji, thank you too for fixing some references. --Ragib 21:12, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV

I really don't think people should be referred to as "these aliens" or "most of the aliens". And, I don't really think that India is "tolerating" something is a fact, no matter "according" to which Indian official. "Extremely hard" is clearly an example of a peacock word, so is "has become a champion". As far as I know the "fence" thing is not happening in reality, not anymore. And, I believe there has been allegations of bigotry against the "Organizer", one of the sources cited. For something as big as what is claimed in the article, there seems to be a curious lack of scholarly sources used. Has anyone outside of India or Bangladesh ever cared about this happening? Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 03:45, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

The other big problem/POV with this article is that, several sections are just quotes from random news items. For example, the crime section just mentions a random robbery. Wikipedia is not a crime-journal. Also, isolated incidents like this are not encyclopedic. If you take any nationality X living in country Y, you can dig up a newspaper report of a criminal of X nationality. That incident by itself is meaningless. For example, Indian businessman working in Bangladesh has fled after taking Crores of takas from local businessmen. That by itself does not generalize into an encyclopedic article like "Indian criminals working in Bangladesh".

The Nandigram claim is ridiculous. I have NOT seen this implication even in the most right-wing Hindutwa-badi news sources that all problems in Nandigram are also the result of any foreigners. A passing mention/remark in a newspaper taken out of context is not really encyclopedic material. --Ragib (talk) 06:20, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Please see Left Front puts Nandigram land acquisition on hold Sanjay Basak

The state government has reports that illegal Bangladeshi migrants have trickled into parts of rural Bengal, including Nandigram, over the years, and settled down as sharecroppers with the help of local Left leaders. Though a majority of these immigrants became tillers, they lacked documents to prove the ownership of land. --Vikramsingh (talk) 00:12, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, I have seen that ... but what report? What agency? The reporter does a really bad job of making those vague remarks without clarifying anything. Also, not even that article made any inference about the state sponsored Nandigram killings and Bangladesh. --Ragib (talk) 00:40, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Denial

Ragib,

You can see with your own eyes enormous slum colonies of Bangladeshis in many cities of India, even outside of Bengal.

Yet Bangladesh leaders have always denied the presence of Bangladeshis in India.

"When Begum Khaleda visited India as Prime Minister during her first term, she made an extraordinary statement that there were no Bangladeshis in India. No doubt, this remains her stand even today. Her Foreign Minister, Mr Morshed Khan, told a Press conference at Dhaka on February 6 that there is not a single Bangladeshi migrant in India".

I am sorry to say, that is simply dishonest.

The illegal migration of Bangladeshis has been widely studied, by government agencies, (even in Sachar report) in India as well as overseas researchers.

I note that you have not expressed any concern about Hindus in Bangladesh, or the enormous problems several states of India are facing. You want to stonewall these tragic facts.

--Vikramsingh (talk) 00:51, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't have any recent plans to visit and "See with my own eyes". There are neutral third-party agencies that are there to do this, not the Indian media, right-wing political parties etc. That you feel a statement by Bangladesh Govt to be dishonest is your interpretation, which has not a lot of impact on any Wikipedia article. We are here to write an encyclopedia, and NOT a blog. Thank you. --Ragib (talk) 01:21, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Also, no ad hominem comments please. You probably have better things to do than trying to figure out what I'm trying my hardest to "Stonewall", but that's of not really related to *this* article. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a battleground, nor an Indian newspaper. --Ragib (talk) 01:22, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Well... I guess I have met quite a few people of Bangladeshi origin who migrated into India illegally. But, that can only be a basis of original research, and not in any way a tool to derogate a group or people. Does Wikipedia have articles on how India illegally occupies Bangladesh land (a about a decade back Bangladesh Rifles actually fought a small battle against BSF for a piece of such land, a briefly publicized event on Bangladesh media)? How India harbors Bangladeshi extremists (Bangladesh government has lodged quite a few requests to get some people alleged to be Islamist extremists, and there are complaints form the Bangladesh civil society on local media)? Or, how India keeps Bangladeshi foreign relations terrorized (Bangladesh newspapers has been publishing articles, news and commentaries telling that for 30 years now)? I don't think we should, unless there is reliable and neutral data and sources to support those claims. If we want, we can turn Wikipedia into a battleground of mud-slinging. But, do we really want that? If you want to make a complaint about these illegal aliens draining India, there always are newspapers and other websites. I hope none of my comments hurt anyone, as they are not my viewpoints and rather are random facts (unverified, of course). Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 04:29, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

The article as it stands looks fairly balanced. "Indian newspapers" are reliable sources, like it or not. But there are numerous sources, like Al-Jazeera, BBC, etc that document this phenomenon. As for unverified things, no one is under any obligation to believe them, unless you show something from the Daily Star, Dainik Ittefeq, etc (or other reliable Bangladeshi source) that corroborates. The Nandigram section is probably the biggest news garner right now.Baka man 00:09, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Sure. Currently the facts are well sourced, though I still have a problem accepting the Organizer, and it'd be nice to keep it that way. But it doesn't seem to be as balanced. The Bangladesh side of the story is written is given more as outrages than factual presentation of comments, and the Bangladeshi population residing illegally inside India are presented as not-people (like a legal/economic problem). A slight bit of copyediting might solve that easily. And, Baka, I am only supporting Ragib's edit of the article as he turned the article what it is now from a quite offensive article. I have no intention of ruining a fair article (sourced and balanced). And, I am happy that you could see my seeming "anti-Indian" examples as what they are - mere examples of acute views that the press can generate. Aditya^{(talk • contribs)} 09:04, 28 November 2007 (UTC)