Talk:Idolatry in Christianity

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Contents 1 Nomination for Featured Article 2 Article Title 3 Does The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints had any views/commets on Idolatry 4 NPOV tag 5 too much Catholicism

[edit] Nomination for Featured Article

Very well done, now in the FAC list. Thank you.

A. Shetsen 03:20, 5 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Cool. What's the FAC list? RK

Tried to nominate for a featured article yesterday, but got no support after 24 hours. Too bad. Still think this is one fine job...A. Shetsen 06:39, 6 Jul 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Article Title

The title of this article is very offending to the greatest part of the Christian believers. Therefore I've put the lable POV on the article. To be honest, I think the article should be completely removed.Liudger 21:51, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

To the person above (Liudiger?): 1.) Please read the article obectively and the dictionary to understand the discussion. 2.) Often the Commandment regarding 'idols' is regarded as 'false idols' of other deities. Should it be insisted that all idols, depicting any religious figure (Christian or not) are against God's wishes, then every nativity scene and any picture of Jesus is violating this interpretation of God's law. 3.) I believe that the 'greatest part of the Christian believers' is Catholic, which is a sect largely tolerant of using material representations of God in their worship.

To the author of this entry: his article is well-written, concise and highly informational. Keep up the good work and don't let fundamentalism get in the way of objective research. EXCELLENT WORK!!!

Presenting the historical arguments of Christians is not "fundamentalism"; giving precedence to one argument is not objective.
(PS: please sign your posts) --MishaPan 17:08, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I am inclined to remove the POV label. The title of any article is going to be a flag of convenience: its chief purpose is to enable people looking for a particular article to find it. The title "Idolatry in Christianity" does not accuse Christians specifically of practicing idolatry; it is instead a discussion of the various Christian views about idolatry. You could retitle it to something like "Christian views on idolatry" or "Idolatry according to Christianity" but those titles are only wordier and harder to type, while they do nothing to make the article easier to find, and make it likelier that people will get this article as a false positive while looking for something else. Smerdis of Tlön 16:21, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Your argument, and the POV of the article itself, presumes that the veneration of icons is idolatry (as defined in the opening sentence of the article). The article assumes that this "idolatry" was defended by the post-Constantinian church. The reality is that the church has always opposed idolatry, and warned her members against it (please see entry below under "NPOV tag"). MishaPan 17:29, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I am inclined to remove the NPOV tag. The article is well-written, informative, and (gasp!) thought-provoking. I can completely understand why some theists who have an affinity for both the 2nd commandment, and for their stained glass windows want to avoid the issue; it is hard to hold dear two mutually exclusive ideas. I will go this far on changes, though: I can see how the title could seem harsh to a born-and-bred theist. How about a name change? Like, "Idolotry Controversy within Christianity" or "Historical Christian Perspectives on Idols" or "Christian Views on Idolotry" or "Christian Idol Worship Through the Ages." Just kidding about that last one. Again, a fine article. Kjdamrau 05:05, 14 October 2007 (UTC)kjdamrau

[edit] Does The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints had any views/commets on Idolatry

Ever? And if so it should be edited into Idolatry in Christianity because of that (and I'm anyway a member too, but I still whata know the answer from you guys because I seem to never got an clear answer-especially from my father.) And do Latter-Day Saints have similer views like the Protestants have on idolatry also (note that I found some simileries between the Mormon church and Protestant belief and/or pratices as I read on Wikipedia and within my church.) So I also like a Latter-Day Saint member to also answer this question of mind for me, but I also allowing a non-member as well to answer this for me as well.Thanks. —This unsigned comment was added by 206.180.135.43 (talk • contribs) .

Teachings by leaders of the LDS church on idolatry are very similar to american protestantism and traditional christianity. Worship of anything, or incorrect prioritization of something before worship of God would constitute idolatry. Thus, differing from the defintion on the main page, ("the worship of a created object"), Mormonism would include "activities" as well as objects. Thus, sporting events, addictions and obsessivness with sex would all be considered idols. It is a familiar twist that some american protestant pastors also share with believers.

However, to complicate the matter, the church has outlined a few priorities that they recommend to members (hense the term "family first"). Adults are commanded to love only two things with all of their "heart" - God and their spouse. So a relationship with a spouse should receive similar priority (not nessisarily the same, mind you, but similar) as a relationship with God. As a family in Mormonism is for eternity, a "one" relationship with a spouse is essential to exaltation. And mankind should be "one" with God as well. However, the relationship with a spouse should not take presedence over a relationship with God. If it does, it could be considered idolatry as well. -Visorstuff 23:09, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Wow. Guess that explains why there don't seem to be very many LDS monasteries. Wesley (talk) 05:38, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] NPOV tag

I've restored the {{NPOV}} tag. The problem doesn't lie so much with the article's title as with the discussion. Based upon the opening sentence's definition: "Idolatry, in Christian theology, is 'the worship of a created object either made by human hands or created by God' rather than worship one would give to the true God Himself." Based on this definition, the discussion in the article points to iconodules as practitioners of idolatry. This perspective is based on ignorance and is not NPOV. It shows complete ignorace of the distinction made in historical Christianity between the veneration of images and the adoration of God. It shows ignorance even of the definition of the English word "worship" (which means to "hold worthy" and is not limited to divine woship, but means the honor given to kings, judges, etc.). Divine worship is referred to as "adoration", and is limited to God alone. While the article does give a very brief and incomplete description of the theological arguments in favour of the veneration of icons, it just as quickly dismisses them. The article, while it may be "well written" from an aesthetic point of view, is not written from a neutral point of view. It favors Protestant theology over Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Oriental Orthodox theology, which together constitute the majority of Christians (see Major religious groups). MishaPan 17:08, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

The opening definition in the article is theologically defective: "Idolatry, in Christian theology, is 'the worship of a created object either made by human hands or created by God' rather than worship one would give to the true God Himself." Actually, in Christian Theology, Idolatry is the worship of a created object with the same worship (latria) one would give to the true God Himself. MishaPan 17:29, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

MishaPan is absolutely right and the NPOV tag is completely justified. Jonathan A Jones 18:50, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I have attempted to reword the opening sentence to address this concern. It now reads "Idolatry, in Christian theology, is "the worship of a created object either made by human hands or created by God" instead of, or in addition to, the worship due only to the true God." The purpose here was to accommodate those Christian groups who distinguish between degrees of worship, and permit the worship of images and beings other than God. I'll let this edit sit for a couple days to see if it solves the problem, and revisit to remove the tags unless someone objects. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 15:02, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] too much Catholicism

This article has a dangerous veer towards pro-catholicism 'however veneration of a saint is NOT idol worship' from a scholarly stand point it IS idol worship. as it says in Leviticus 'Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it.' 'sacred stone' refers to any material bound object. just walk into any catholic cathedral/monastery and you will see STONE or GOLD images. In a catholic website this would be fine, but Wikipedia is an encyclopedia not a religious work. in wikipedias neutrality article 'All Wikipedia articles and other encyclopedic content must be written from a neutral point of view, representing views fairly, proportionately and without bias.' is the summary provided.

Where do you find this "scholarly stand point" stated? Also, if you walked into the Temple of the Old Testament, you would find images of Cherubim on the doors, the walls, the curtains, in front of the Holy of Holies, and on the Ark and the furnishings of the Temple... and so according to the "scholarly stand point" would this not prove that the Israelites were idol worshippers? Frjohnwhiteford (talk) 06:19, 18 November 2007 (UTC)