Talk:Hydronium

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these ions are correctly referred to as oxonium ions and not hydronium ions

Contents

[edit] Solvation shells

  • ) I have added information from a recent article by MArkovitch & Agmon to the solvation section.

I would like to also add a picture and some more detailes, how can I do so?
I'd like to add the folloiwng picture: solvation shells energies. omermar


I don't think this is entirely appropriate for the general hydronium article. If the figure or related information can be found in the reference then I think it's enough for interested parties. Perhaps you can add to the Grotthuss mechanism page. Pigwiggle 18:36, 29 March 2007 (UTC)


Already in my to-do list. Thanks, Omer.

[edit] Some error ?

-- BEGIN QUOTATION --

Two other well-known structures are the Zundel and Eigen cations. Eigen placed the hydronium ion at the centre of an H9O4+ complex in which the hydronium is strongly hydrogen-bonded to 3 neighbouring water molecules (3). Eigen proposed an H5O2+ complex, in which the proton is shared equally by two water molecules (4).

...

(3) Zundel, G. & Metzger, H. (1968) Energiebänder der tunnelnden Übershuß-Protenon in flüssigen Säuren. Eine IR-spektroskopische Untersuchung der Natur der Gruppierungen H5O2+ Z. Phys. Chem. 58 225-245.

(4) Wicke, E.; Eigen, M. & Ackermann, Th. (1954) Über den Zustand des Protons (Hydroniumions) in wäßriger Lösung. Z. Phys. Chem. 1 340-364.

-- END QUOTATION --


Actually, I'm unable to verify the articles (not so easy), but there is probably something wrong:

-) The (3) is a Zundel's, not Eigen's, article.

-) From the article it seems that Eigen proposed both models, and it's not clear which is the Zundel and which the Eigen cations formula.

-) I'm quite sure that Zundel (not Eigen) proposed the H5O2+ structure. See, for example, J. Chem. Phys., Vol. 116, No. 2, 8 January 2002 (or simply the title of Zundel's article (3)). (But I could be wrong)

It doesn't matter who proposed what, but rather what the solvation structure is called. Pigwiggle

=) Actually, Eigens vision was that the H3O+ ion is better described as H9O4+, which includes the H3O+ and it's first solvation shell. This effects many properties, for example - the diffusion of this larger structure will be slower. We have recently reported energetics of the hydronium solvation shells and found that the hydrogen bonds between the H3O+ and it's first solvation shell are indeed quite strong. I'll post a link to the article (from Journal of Physical Chemistry A) soon. omermar 07/03/2007

[edit] oxonium and hydronium ions are different

an oxonium ion is R3O+ and can be hydronium but also a protonated ketone or aldehyde, I propose to split of oxonium to the more general meaning V8rik 22:39, 9 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, that's based off the solvent system definition isn't it? In which case, that would be the Solvonium, or <anything>-ium relative to dissociation of afforementioned compound/molecule. Beside that, the OXO is the IUPAC prefix for oxygen -- if there is a functional bonding atom it'd be named off what that was; ammonium, phosphonium, iodonium. Get your IUPAC Systematic Substitutive Nomenclature books :-3 J O R D A N [talk ] 15:47, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
Take a peek here J O R D A N [talk ] 15:50, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Isn't the IUPAC name actually HYDROXONIUM? 218.103.142.233 12:40, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

maybe, but no one uses it.Pigwiggle 16:17, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
No one uses it? I don't think so. "Hydroxonium" is the term used in the syllabus I'm studying. My textbook and a few textbooks from other publishers are also using this term. Using Google, I found 19,600 results.[1]202.40.137.198

that doesnt matter. what matters is what it is. Javsav 11:00, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Fine, but don't get all excited about moving the page or anything. Folks will be coming here to read about the hydronium cation. I'm exceedingly familiar with the literature and absolutely everyone uses hydronium. I don't recall ever reading oxonium or hydroxonium. I'd bet the farm hydronium is used exclusively in the page references. Pigwiggle 14:38, 5 September 2006 (UTC)


I am from Hungary and here it used to be called hidroxonium but now the official name is simly oxonium. May it have happened to the english name, too? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.120.208.2 (talk) 12:13, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pure Hydronium?

Can you make pure hydronium?

=) I suppose you could, if you took a measured quantity of a strong mineral acid (HCl or some such) and added an equal amount of moles of pure water to it. If you then filter out the anions (Cl) by putting it through a membrane, you would be left with hydronium.

doubt it; you would have a huge charge deficit not to mention two highly reducing/oxidizing solutions Pigwiggle 16:20, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

=) I agree. The closest you can do is highly acidic solution, but then you will also have the counter ion. For example - adding lots of HCl will increase your eigen/zundel cations, but would also leave Cl-. What you can do is simulate pure hydronium; We have recently reported for the first time the energetics of hydronium solvation shells (In journal of Physical Chemistry A). I'll post a link here soon. omermar 07/03/2007

The only way you can have pure hydronium is in the gas phase. Not something you would store in a bottle, though. --Itub 10:20, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
You can make pure hydronium (i.e., H3O+ instead of larger clusters) with a counterion simply by making the monohydrate of a strong acid such as triflic. But there's no way you can "filter out the anions".Tressure 21:59, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Unless you could somehow make the hydronium ions adopt a metallic state, similar to the theorized metallic hydrogen. Then you could filter them out in pure form. This would require extremely high pressures (it might not even be possible to do so at all without decomposing the ions, however). Stonemason89 (talk) 14:18, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] pKa?

The pKa given for the hydronium ion is meaningless. The Ka for hydronium is the equilibrium constant for the reaction H3O+ + H2O <-> H2O + H3O+. This is a null reaction (products are the same as the reactants), so the equilibrium constant is, by definition, one. The Ka given of 55.5 is calculated by ignoring the concentration of water as a reactant (because it's a solvent), but -not- ignoring it as a product. I can think of few conventions which are sillier.Tressure 21:56, 7 June 2007 (UTC)