Talk:Hydraulic empire

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[edit] Terminology

Is esper a word? I didn't see it in the dictionary. --Anon

Neither did I. I've only ever seen it in sci-fi and Japanese contexts. --maru (talk) contribs 02:11, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, it's a word; linguistic consensus, AFAIK, is that it's a re-capitalization of "ESP-er", "ESP" plus the occupational suffix. It's a rare term, and it primarily shows up in SF and associated contexts, but it was not invented for Final Fantasy 6, which popularized it among the Wikipedia set; in fact, it's probably a more familiar word in Japanese than it is in English -- the original (Japanese-language) version of Final Fantasy Legend 2, five or six years before Final Fantasy 6, used "ESUPAA BOI" and "ESUPAA GAARU" for male and female magic-users ("Mutant M" and "Mutant F" in the English localization) -- which indicates that the term "ESUPAA" ("Esper") was familiar enough that Japanese teenagers and even children would understand what it meant or at least would be able to look it up.
By the way, what in heck does this have to do with hydraulic despotism? :) 96.237.71.42 (talk) 03:08, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Marx and hydraulic empires

I thought they were mentioned by Karl Marx. --Anon.

[edit] On the analysis section

[i]Can this term apply to despotism of the developed world, with its monopoly on technology-development, the "water" of industrialized economies, in its relationship to the developing world? This concept is likely anathema to citizens of the developed world[/i]

The analogy is strained. If you look at technology development, you don't see a fixed size resource. Education, invention, and the application of technology all aren't limited in any fundamental way. Knowledge in particular can be replicated indefinitely. I grant it's possible for a group to control a critical aspect of technology just through their advanced knowledge, but that knowledge can be reinvented or stolen.

Perhaps a better consideration would be security and control. With the increasing power of technology, it is both harder to be secure from harm and harder to control people, society, etc.

This sentence should be removed as an empty theoretical toss-away that betrays a developing world POV. Absent a specific argument to make for a western hydraulic despotism based on technology, it's little more than a backhanded rhetorical slap.
To include it, specific reference should be made to someone else's argument, with the logic of the argument summarized in a way that doesn't present the article as supporting it. JJ 18:05, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Water empire merged here

See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Water empire. Johnleemk | Talk 05:39, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Deleted this section

In The Constant Feud: Forest Versus Desert, the late Israeli author E. G. Ban used the "hydraulic empire" theory to explain the hostility between the Middle East and Western civilizations, starting with the Persian invasion of Greece, leading through the Punic Wars, the Jewish rebellions against Rome and eventually to the conflicts between the Islamic world and the Western world. In E. G. Ban's view, Middle Easterners hated the Western world because of a feeling of deprivation and envy resulting from the desertification of their own environment.

Deleted this because it's not relevant - how does the idea of envy on the part of "Middle Easterners" (a questionable term) resulting from the desertification of their own environment, relate to the concept of the hydraulic empire, as defined elsewhere in the piece?

As well as being irrelevant, it's a highly questionable thesis (I would say, "drivel"), and not substantiated or supported by third-party references - the work of a non-canonical author included seemingly arbitrarily; furthermore it links within the paragraph (not in the footnotes) to an external site, so I'm frankly suspicious of the motives behind its inclusion.

[edit] SF

I removed some parts from the "Examples in SF" section. It's simply too long compared to the rest of the article and while that concept is common in SF which may merit a section it shouldn't dominate the article.

When brought to planetary level, hydraulic despotism exists in its purest form among the Fremen of Arrakis. Water among the Fremen is life and can be seen from the fact that Fremen recycle water from their dead's blood. A quote from the O.C. Bible in the novel states "From water does all life begin".

the society of the Fremen was tribal, not a hydraulic empire

Destiny's Road by Larry Niven (1998) is another example: the seeds called "speckles" contain a nutrient missing in the colonized planet's biosphere. Deficiency of said nutrient results in dimnished mental capacity which may be permanent if prolonged or it occurs early during a child's development, and can also result in death.
The Sten Chronicles series of books by Allan Cole and Chris Bunch (8 books): Anti-Matter Two is a safer, more controllable form of anti-matter, and only the Eternal Emperor knows the manufacturing process and is zealous in its sale and use.
Also in the movie Total Recall the oxygen injected into the Martian colonies where humans live is controlled by a totalitarian government.
In the film adaptation of Tank Girl, the tyrannical Water & Power company controls Earth's remaining fresh water.

A section with examples from movies/sf etc. on wikipedia opens Pandora's Box. The first two examples are elaborate and fitting and after that comes an overly long list of obscure and pointless examples put in in later edits. I don't doubt that there are hundreds of works that have something remotely resembling a hydraulic empire but we don't have to mention every single one because the section says "Examples" not "Exhaustive List". I left the (probably) most well-known example -Dune- and the example that seems to best fit the topic. 62.245.161.201 17:11, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

No, Destiny's Road is definitely the better example as it's central to the plot. A World Out of Time is barely memorable, though I do agree that the Pak/TlO is totally off the mark. Other examples in Niven's bibliography are Smoke Ring and Building Harlequin's Moon --Belg4mit 06:57, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Additions

Arguably, the Incas should be a see also, but probably not until that entry is updated. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Belg4mit (talk • contribs) 07:30, 25 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] SO..What do we call oil controlled empires?

I just read this article, and I couldn't help but think of my countries current total dependency on oil production. The entire thing would collapse almost overnight it oil production stopped.

Please sign your comments. If you wanted to make the argument, you could call them hydraulic empires. As the article clearly explains, not all hydraulic empires are about water. Regardless, IMHO our dependence upon oil does not equate to a hydraulic empire. "Lifeblood" though it may be, it is not *required*, and the suppliers do not possess comparable levels of control regarding distribution and use. --Belg4mit 20:03, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Skyland?

Should it be here? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 211.30.232.3 (talk) 07:53, 20 November 2007 (UTC)