Talk:Hunting dog

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

	Dogs Portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Dogs, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles on Canines on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
Start	This article has been rated as Start-Class on the Project's quality scale.
Top	This article has been rated as Top-importance on the importance scale.
Article Grading: The article has been rated for quality and/or importance but has no comments yet. If appropriate, please review the article and then leave comments to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article and what work it needs.

[edit] Table

The table is quite good, though it needs a few modifications to make it more accurate. Another level of division is necessary under gun dogs allowing for the division between the three main hunting styles: retriever, pointing breed, and flusher. Also, I think that lurchers should be added. I would place them in the table as a subdivision of sight hound as that how they hunt. Similarly, water dog should be a subdivision of retriever. I tried to make the change, but I lack the skill. If we have a bank of photos, it would be useful to replace photos of dogs such as the poodle which have ceased to be a hunting dog and replace with something like and American Water Spaniel or Irish Water Spaniel. The poodle is on the show dog page, after all. I recommend making changes to those photos that show non-hunting variant such as the basset hound, and show type cocker. A photo of a basset hound from a working british pack or a Treeing Walker would be more accurate for a hunting dog page. That little basset is cute, but he would have a tough time following a rabbit on those little legs.--Counsel 06:47, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

OK, I merged the text into the table and mucked around with the organization a bit. Added lurchers. Didn't want to try to show too many levels of hierarchy in the table, so lurchers are just at the same level as the other hounds; description will distinguish--same shd be true for water dogs ("Water dogs are a subclass of retrievers."). I think that's sufficient.

As for photos, when I created the page, I tried to find the nicest photos that we had at the time of dogs in that category. Something clear and attractive that showed the whole dog if possible and also was very typical of the indicated type. If you can find photos you'd rather include, fine--you can look through the list of dog images that I've tried very hard to collect as they've been added to wikipedia. I've also tried hard to make sure that the images on these pages are valid images to use on wikipedia (not copyrighted or fair use or otherwise questionable), so any should be fine.

Is it possible to shorten the descriptions on this page some? (OK--lurchers could be longer :-) .) Real details about each category should be in the individual articles.

And a question about lurchers--I have found info that says they're a mix between hounds and herding dogs. You say between hounds & terriers. I have an acquaintance, a dog genetics researcher, who says that in fact *any* hound mix is a lurcher (she has bred foxhounds with whippets). The New Encyclopedia of the Dog says it's a mix of Greyhounds with either terriers or collies. The Encyclopedia of dog breeds says it's any Longdog ("sighthounds or similar breeds") with "usually" a herding breed. I don't know what to think.

Elf | Talk

Counsel, please look at these hunting dogs.The Dogfather 06:23, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

Yea, easy to propose wonderful pics. Another to actually produce them. As far as the lurcher goes, it is really a concept that predates the strict kennel club classifications we have today. I think that combining almost anything with a sight hound to produce a working sight hound with hybrid strength would be a lurcher. Those who produce them are more concerned with the product than the ingredients. The herding and terrier crosses are most common, but my guess is that this is because they were the most commonly available dogs to cross in rural England. --Counsel 19:17, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Working Poodles

I read an article recently about a poodle that earned a hunt test title as well Here it is. To me it is really exciting to see people putting effort into bringing poodle back to the hunting world. As far as I can tell, they exist only among the hunt test crowd (which is not the same as the hunting crowd). As a non-sporting breed they are not permitted into field-trials. This is unfortunate as poodles routinely test a the top of the breed list in intelligence and trainability and have a lot to commend them to the hunter. They are especially good for those with dog allergies. I think, at this point, however, the two or three breeders working toward a working poodle are the exception that proves the rule. If you look in the classifieds in a gun dog magazine, for instance, there are hundreds of ads for dogs of all types. There are no ads for poodles. I have never even read of a hunter (who was not a breeder) actually using a poodle and I have certainly never seen one. Their fluffy coat, produced after decades of selecting for coat traits that are the opposite of the insulating protective coat that would be helpful to a working water dog is a significant hurdle to overcome. Duck hunters are the people who use water dogs and they hunt in cold miserable conditions. I think that the poodle still has a way to go before it become a regular selection of those who have to break ice to provide an entry in the water for their dog. I would be interested to hear if anyone does know someone who hunts a poodle. They well may make it back in the working dog world, but I submit that they are not there yet.--Counsel 19:08, 11 March 2006 (UTC)

It is distressing to see you make blanket statements, such as "they exist only among the hunt test crowd", which are are not true. Just because the typical hunter is a troglodyte (the main reason I have left the sport; you are a singular exception) who would never consider hunting a poodle, does not mean that that they are not being used as such. I'll wager you don't see many ads for Irish Water Spaniels either, and most Labs and Goldens are also not field dogs. Poodles were hunting long before many of these other breeds existed, and as the prejudices against them begin to fall away, you will begin to see more in the field. I was visiting a hospital recently with my dog, and an employee stopped me to tell me of his recent pheasant hunt, last fall, where the guide used two Poodles to flush and retrieve the birds.The Dogfather 16:35, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Well, I said "as far as I can tell..." first. However, I stand corrected. It is an interesting question. Although, it appears only a few dogs (relatively speaking) are working in this way, there is no getting around the fact that a high percentage of them are successful at it. The working predjudice among hunters is that it takes constant work to maintain hunting genes. Poodles, for the most part, have been bred primarily for other-than-hunting traits for quite a while and seem to have kept a good ability. It certainly calls into question many of the field lines versus working lines arguments (which are prejudice mostly). I think the fact that those dogs that are worked are successful at it is enough to warrant their inclusion. Better to err on the side of over inclusion rather than risk perpetuating an unfounded prejudice. I will email that site you pointed out to see if they will donate a picture to Wikipedia for use on this page. My guess is they will be happy to do so.--Counsel 17:35, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I do think that the IWS and Golden are worked much more than the poodle today. There is even a regular Golded field trial here in Spokane, but you are certainly right that the vast majority of those dogs are not worked, but are included.--Counsel 17:35, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

That's a good working poodle pic. And if you would rather use something else, I guess I can understand that. I realize Poodles are not commonly used. Keep in mind that when many of these articles were started there were no pics to be had, so we used what was available. If you look at the histories of some of these dog articles you will see that I myself have gone to various breed enthusiasts to beg for pictures (the IWS comes to mind). So for a latecomer to show up and complain about the choice of pictures, well, I get my dander up a bit about it. Good pictures are hard to come by. If you can get people to donate what is needed, go for it. The Dogfather 05:38, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Another note, the lady who donated the photo sent a story about her MINIATURE poodle that completed a NAHRA hunt test leg. These are more difficult than the AKC hunt tests (which forbid mini poodles) and she was one of only 6 dogs to complete the leg. There were 8 labs, 2 goldens, and a chessie to compete with. You just never know.--Counsel 06:18, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Pig dogs

I noticed that pig dogs are not yet mentioned in this article. I don't know much about them, nor have I ever met any but a few strays, but they seem to be almost anything. And the manner in which they are used to hunt varies enormously, from those that circle the animal until it is too worn out to run away, to those that actually take down the animal themselves. I can see that they do not fit in very well with the article as it is, as I don't believe pigging is recognised as a sport. Research is likely to be difficult. The article is looking great though, well done with the pictures. I am a lemon 00:54, 5 September 2007 (UTC)