Talk:Hrodna
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[edit] Governance timeline
| 1199–1219 | To Halych-Volhynia |
| 1219–1252 | To Grand Duchy of Lithuania |
| 1252–1254 | To Halych-Volhynia |
| 1254–1795 | To Grand Duchy of Lithuania (Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth from 1569) |
| 1795–1812 | To Russian Empire |
| 1812, July - December | French occupation |
| 1812–1915 | To Russian Empire |
| 1915–1918 | German occupation |
| 1918 | To Belarusian National Republic |
| 1918–1920 | To Lithuania |
| 1920–1939 | To Poland |
| 1939–1941 | To Soviet Union |
| 1941–1944 | Nazi occupation |
| 1944–1991 | To Soviet Union |
| 1991— | To Belarus |
[edit] Belarusian language was forbidden
What do understand as "forbidden"? When? Lack of b. schools isn't the same, there are no b. schools in the USA. Is the language forbidden there? Xx236 14:45, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
Of course not. It's one of the two official languages of the country.
[edit] Grodno or Hrodna--Greg.loutsenko 23:40, 9 August 2006 (UTC) in the text?
There are rules (see Danzig), not applied here. Xx236 14:15, 13 January 2006 (UTC)
Should we move Hrodna to Grodno? Hrodna isn't as awkward-looking as "Mahilyow" and seems more established, but Grodno gets ten times more hits on Google (1.6 million to 100+ thousand) and is used for the government's website. Kazak 04:35, 22 February 2006 (UTC)
While German name is indeed not useful, Lithuanian one is quite useful, as the city was considered to be part of Lithuania until 1939 (Soviets recognised it to Lithuania in 1920 by the Soviet-Lithuanian peace treaty), was on the border of Lithuanian and Belarussian inhabitted territories in the times of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania (and as back then there was no official information about exact ethnicities, it is unclear how many Lithuanians and how many Belarussians were in Hrodna at the time), the name "Gardinas" derives from word "Gardas" and is an original name, it as well differs enough from "Hrodna" for it to be hard for someone who does not know it is the same city to understand that; Lithuanian names are mentioned for northwest Belarus cities, while Belarusian names are mentioned for eastern Lithuanian cities (such as Vilnius). Regehani tara bahera! Dara Fryram hani tahreha! 09:12, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
- i want to say, WTF. why isnt this article titles Grodna? i russian word's first letter is G, and it sounds like english G......this article need to be re titled. i want to this through this, what do you think?
--Greg.loutsenko 23:41, 9 August 2006 (UTC)
Grodno is Russian, but the city is in Belarus, so the Belarusian name Hrodna should be used. Hrodna is found on all modern maps in English and German speaking countries. Best regards, Juhan, German Wikipedia
- I think the historical names (Polish, Russian, Lithuanian) should be stated, becaused they were used at some time (while city was in Grand Duchy of Lithuania, Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth and Russian empire, interwar republic of Lithuania (by 1920 Moscow treaty), interwar republic of Poland (after polish-soviet war). They are useful when talking about cities history. Furthermore, belarussianising lithuanian names (Vytautas to Vitaut) is a nonsense. We don't lithuanise names of rulers of Kievan Rus (state which was ruled by ancestors of belarussians), the Skaryna's name isn't lithuanised too (even if he lived mos't of his life in Lithuania). Talking about belarussianising lithuanian cities names (Vilnius to Wilnia) is other thing. You can list belarussian name to it (We lived in one state for many years
and we still have large belarussian minority) even if there are almost none english articles with this name, but we have a right to write lithuanian names to belarussian towns too (mostly to ones which influenced Lithuania most and has lithuanian minority). Continue discussion or i will move the Lithuanian, Polish and Yiddish names back even without discussion. Karolis-lt 17:23, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
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- I dissagree. In principle it sounds good, but in reality it opens a can of worms allowing ultra-nationalist POV pushers to run rampant on Wikipedia. If you want to know what a geographical entity is called in a foreign language there is usually an article, that can be accessed. Links and redirects are also helpful, and can be employed to acquire information too. It just gets too messy. Taken to a logical extreme, the Polish name for New York or Chicago, should then be included in the lead due to the large Polish populations found there. The Polish article tells you the Polish name is Nowy Jork, and there you have it. A mouse click away. Dr. Dan (talk) 15:46, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
- Of course we should avoid ultranationalistic POV. That is why article should be edited by peoples of various nations. Now i see many articles written in only belarussian POV. Somebody could think that there was no lithanians or poles in Hrodna. Listing names in other languages only shows it's diversity and respect for other nations living in the city. That is why article of Vilnius has the names listed in languages in which local minorities called it. Adding the Names_of_European_cities_in_different_languages for most diverse cities which has common history and culture for many nations would be great thing to avoid nationalistic POV and help to understand the history. Of course we shouldn't write lithuanian name for Chicago or arab name for Paris only because of large minorities living there. Historical names should only be added to cities which belonged to other country before or had large HISTORICAL minority. Karolis-lt 21:43, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
- I dissagree. In principle it sounds good, but in reality it opens a can of worms allowing ultra-nationalist POV pushers to run rampant on Wikipedia. If you want to know what a geographical entity is called in a foreign language there is usually an article, that can be accessed. Links and redirects are also helpful, and can be employed to acquire information too. It just gets too messy. Taken to a logical extreme, the Polish name for New York or Chicago, should then be included in the lead due to the large Polish populations found there. The Polish article tells you the Polish name is Nowy Jork, and there you have it. A mouse click away. Dr. Dan (talk) 15:46, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
There should be polish name Grodno.Grodno before II WW was mostly polish city. Poles 60%, Jewish 37% Belorussians and Lithuanians 3%
[edit] Pitchers?
Can someone explain what the term built-in pitchers refers to in the paragraph "Medieval"? I was not able to locate a specialty definition pertaining to architecture, that explains it. I would also like to remove the various "foreign" (non-Belarusian names), from the lead. There are links in all of the other non-English Wikipedias with their own articles in Lithuanian, Polish and Russian WK. Dr. Dan 13:29, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
- Pitchers, jugs or ewers were built into the walls of pre-Mongol Orthodox churches in order to improve acoustics. They were commonly built into the vaults, to alleviate their pressure on the walls. As their round apertures opened into the interior, multiple layers of built-in pitchers were used in Hrodna purely for decorative purposes. You are welcome to improve my phrasing to make the meaning clear. As for the second part of your question, I really don't know. Probably we should move all these names down into the text. We should keep in mind that many (if not most) people google for this town as "Grodno", because this had been its familiar name for centuries and because Russian is kind of official in Belarus now. --Ghirla -трёп- 15:06, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Polish name of Grodno
Why someone remove Polish name of the city ? It was a Polish city in the past. Before II World war there wasn/t any Russians or Russian language. It was russificated like all Białoruś by Soviets. Polish population of Grodno or all polish voivodeship of Białystok was expelled by to communist poland. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.21.61.57 (talk) 19:11, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
