Talk:House of Habsburg

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Catholicism Portal
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Catholicism, which collaborates on articles related to the Roman Catholic Church. To participate, edit this article or visit the project page for details.
Start This article has been rated as start-Class on the Project's quality scale.
High This article has been rated as high-importance on the Project's importance scale.
Germany Portal
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Germany, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to articles related to Germany on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please join the project and help with our open tasks.
Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale.
(If you rated the article please give a short summary at comments to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses.)

|B-Class-1=no |B-Class-2=yes/no |B-Class-3=yes |B-Class-4=yes/no |B-Class-5=yes}}

Spain Portal
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Spain, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to Spain on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please join the project.
Start This article has been rated as start-Class on the quality scale.
High This article has been rated as high-importance on the importance scale.
Middle Ages Icon
Middle Ages Portal
House of Habsburg is part of WikiProject Middle Ages, a project for the community of Wikipedians who are interested in the Middle Ages. For more information, see the project page and the newest articles.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the quality scale.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the importance scale.

Article Grading:
The article has not been rated for quality and/or importance yet. Please rate the article and then leave comments here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article.
WikiProject Middle Ages To do:

The most concentration of people from GALIZIA in Brazil (ukraines-ruthens, polish and austrian) is the state named PARANA, in the cities of Prudentopolis and Curitiba.

Contents

[edit] Images?

What happened to all the images? Have they been moved/removed? I must say I know not how to begin trying to fix this.

[edit] Constance/Anna

What about Constance of Autria/Konstanze of Habsburg, wife of Sigismund_I_of_Sweden? Shouldnt she be listed here as well? Or is it Anna? Could sb fix the genealogy of the Habsburg side of the Vasa famly? http://www3.dcs.hull.ac.uk/cgi-bin/gedlkup/n=royal?royal5506 is this right? --Piotrus 16:52, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Spelling

Hapsburg or Habsburg - which is more commonly used?

Six of one...I think the p has an edge in English, but not necessarily "right" - JHK

Google sez:

Habsburg 32,100 Hapsburg 16,400

And that includes filtering for pages in English only. -- Paul Drye

A Google count merely shows the extent of the spread of the misinformation, not the validity of it. StanZegel 20:32, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

The correct form is definitely "Habsburg". The "p" is an error derived from the hardness of the German pronunciation. No Habsburg would ever have called him/herself a Hapsburg.

Although some English-language dictionaries may describe Hapsburg as a "variant" spelling, I suggest they are merely taking the easy way out by accepting or legitimizing the frequent misspelling. In German it is invariably spelled Habsburg, and that is the way the family itself spells it today. (I have exchanged correspondence with Dr. Otto v. Habsburg, the head of the house, so I have authoritative examples.) If we were needing to transliterate from, say, Russian to English where there are different symbols, there would be legitimate reasons to disagree upon the best spelling using latin letters (e.g. the Germans spell Gorbachev as Gorbaschow), but because German already uses the same symbols as English, there is no reason to spell a German name in English differently than the original.

The reason for the misspelling is the usual one involving surnames: transcription into one language of the sound of a word pronounced in another one. Just as D and T are linguisticly similar and often interchanged, so are B and P. Thus Habsburg becomes Hapsburg or even Hapsberg!

An extreme example of this phenomenon is the surname Schultz whose sound transcribed into Polish is the surname borne by the author Tad Szulc. The distortion continues when those unfamiliar with Polish diction try to pronounce what they see written (they'd come up with the sound "Zulk" instead of Schultz) and someone hearing them say it writes down in English what they heard: Zulk. After years of correcting folks, the Szulc family gives up and changes the spelling because it is easier than correcting everyone. Eventually Zulk will become Sulk and so on. (It is by that same process that Geronimo and Herman and Jerome are all forms of the same name.)

If we want the Wikipedia to be authoritative, I think we need to state clearly and unambiguously the fact that the correct spelling is Habsburg and that the other spelling is not an "acceptable alternative" but is just plain wrong. I did such an edit at the start of the Habsburg Article, but another person changed my frequently misspelled as phrase to also spelled. I think frequently misspelled as is more accurate, but I will not start an edit war by changing it back; I will leave that for someone else to decide and do.

StanZegel 20:32, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)

In fact, what we want for Wikipedia is to cite authoritative sources rather than substitute the judgements of Wikipedia's editors for the judgements of those authorities. English language dictionaries are, in this case, the proper authorities, and the two I've consulted have Habsburg and Hapsburg as variants. Can you cite an English language dictionary that calls "Hapsburg" a misspelling? If so, we can cite it in the article. In fact, if you'll look at the history of the article, this question has been gone over before: we're not a dictionary, we're not a style guide, and our job is to report what the dictionaries or style guides say, not decide which of them is correct (now) or which may have been correct throughout history as both Habsburgs and Hapsburgs were written of. - Nunh-huh 23:51, 22 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Except that it's not an issue of decision that all versions other than the sole native one are simply not the right spelling. We can certainly document that Hapsburg has found its way into English, but it's still wrong to insist that an outdated spelling that hasn't been right from the start should be mentioned on equal terms with the canonical one. --Joy [shallot] 11:12, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
It is if you can't find an English-language dictionary to cite, or a usage guide that states that "Habsburg" is preferred and "Hapsburg" is deprecated. In the absence of such a citation, we can only document that the words are listed as variants. The assertion that "Hapsburg" is a misspelling is simply erroneous, which is why I removed it; if someone can find a citable authority that "Habsburg" is the preferred variant we can attribute it and insert that opinion. What we don't want to do is insert our own (unattributed) opinions. - Nunh-huh 13:42, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
If you don't think Wikipedia should bother documenting preferences between words, why would English dictionaries? After all, dictionaries just list words and provide information about them, it's the encyclopedias that discuss topics. Habsburg and Hapsburg barely even qualify as English words. Our article discusses the German family under their German name; an old English word that became from the loanword needs to be qualified as such.
FWIW, my copy of the OED doesn't even include the word. It only has 1K pages, but still. --Joy [shallot] 22:21, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
English dictionaries do document preferences between words, usually on the basis of "usage panels" who advise them. Such panels determine when a word is archaic or perjorative or a variant spelling. Both dictionaries I have cited give both variant spellings (Habsburg/Hapsburg). It's simply incorrect to call either a misspelling. The OED unfortunately doesn't include most proper nouns, so you're right that it's of no help here. - 06:16, 28 Oct 2004 (UTC)

My understanding is that "Hapsburg" is a largely archaic anglicization, while "Habsburg" is the correct German spelling, which is, at this point, used almost exclusively in English. john k 15:50, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

That's my understanding as well, and I'd like to find a reference that states it as such. It's not a misspelling, but a variant spelling that is in the process of going out of style. - Nunh-huh 18:06, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Besides the b' pronounced somewhat like a p, the u in Habsburg should also be pronounced like the u in Schutz. I say this because I saw someone typing Hapsberg, just as example, but still Hapsberg is pronounced very much different than Habsburg. 81.69.203.77 20:42, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

This is absolutely ridiculous - there should be no reference to the word Hapsburg. It's simply wrong, as any German or historian could tell you. This makes a mockery of Wikipedia. Tdgtdg 17:43, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Documenting a common misspelling is perfectly legitimate, and in no way mocks the integrity of an encyclopedia. Cleduc 22:31, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

Another question. Why do several spellings say Habsburg-Lorraine? Shouldn't it be Habsburg-Lothringen (Lothringen the German spelling of Lorraine)? If we're going to spell the first half of their name in German, shouldn't we do the same with the second half? After all, that is how the Habsburg family spells it. Shouldn't we spell it like the family itself spells it? Emperor001 12:33, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

No. Habsburg, just because it is used in German, is not only a German spelling. It is also an English form of the name. The correct form is of Habsburg-Lorraine but von Habsburg-Lothringen when preceded by von. Charles 23:25, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Galicia

I think the wrong Galicia is linked to in this article.

'Galicia' here refers to an area now covered by south-east Poland and Ukraine around the city of L'viv/Lvov/Lemburg which was definitely part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire up to WWI, unlike the region of the same (English) name in north-west Spain.

Actually, both Galicias are on the linked page. Look down further! <G>. I suppose they could be separated and disambiguated? -- Someone else 02:23, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC)

[edit] Current situation

While I'm not the one who could do it, I think it would be very interesting to add information concerning what has happenened to the Hapsburgs since their final dethronement.

What's it like to be a living Hapspurg, heir to one of the, if not the most influental family of all time? Alex404 05:16, 14 Jun 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Good job

Good job fixing all those links, Martg76. Cheers, [[User:Sam Spade|Sam Spade Arb Com election]] 20:55, 29 Nov 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Category

I suggest creating Category:Habsburg. This would be quite useful I think. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 18:16, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

[edit] Splitting

With the Habsburg catagoy, to clean up the article, it might be a good idea to move all the lists, to say members of the Habsburgs which would clean up the article. Crazynas 05:26, Apr 11, 2005 (UTC)

The lists are mostly already elsewhere, so it'd probably be fine to just delete them, so long as we link to the proper pages and are sure of what we're doing. john k 06:07, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Maria Theresa: Habsburg or Habsburg-Lorraine

Is Maria Theresa properly a member of the house of Habsburg-Lorraine (as she is listed here) or of Habsburg? I know that Queen Victoria is generally considered a ruler of the House of Hanover; only her descendents are Saxe-Coburg-Gothas. Or did the new house come about when she married?

Also, while she was Empress Consort rather than Queen Consort, should [[Marie Louise of Austria] get mentioned in the France section as well as under the Italian petty states? --Jfruh 28 June 2005 21:02 (UTC)

Maria Theresa is pure Habsburg. She married into the House of Lorraine, so her descendents would be H-L, but not her.--StanZegel 29 June 2005 00:43 (UTC)

[edit] Mistake

Nistake years as ruler of Hungary and Bohemia for Maria Theresia changed to real (1741-1780 and 1743-1780)

[edit] Austrian Prince

There Is a funeral home near where I live the owners of it said that an Austrian prince lived there The prince began to make money in the coal industry in Scranton Pennsylavania I'm guessing some time in the later half of the 1800's does anybody have a clue to who this might be Dudtz 2:53 PM EST

"Austrian Prince" is very vague because "Prince" is ambiguous: it can be the son of a king, or it can be a rank in the peerage, or even a sovereign. Austria did not have the rank of Duke (Herzog) above the rank of Count (Graf), so those who were elevated above the Counts were given the rank of Prince (Prinz) instead. Thus in vernacular usage, an "Austrian prince" might imply a male relative of the Emperor (and thus a Habsburg-Lorraine), but in technical usage it could also be someone from any number of other noble families. If you can get some more clues, someone here will surely be able to help you. --StanZegel 20:18, 22 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Mixing up Roman (that is German) Kings and Holy Roman Emperors

Neither Rudolf, nor the two Alberts were actually Holy Roman Emperors, because after their election as Roman kings they were never be crowned and the title "emperor elect" didn't exist at that time. Thus, it is wrong to state that those were Holy Roman Emperors (as it is done in the articleHabsburg#Holy Roman Emperors previous to the reunion of the Habsburg possessions) 85.124.176.170 22:31, 2 August 2005 (UTC)

Well, that technically goes back to the question of what actually made a German king the Emperor...was it his selection by the electors, or a crowning by the Pope or someone else? If the last were true, i dont think by your thinking there was a Holy Roman Emperor after Charles V, and if that were true, if Francis II wasnt one, how could he have abdigated the office of it in 1806 if he were'nt Emperor?

I'm willing to allow that they all were Emperors, just not ones that were fully recognized by everyone.

Actually, the situation changes in the early modern period. Maximilian I was granted the right by the pope to call himself "imperator electus" (emperor-elect) in 1508. This right adhered to all of his successors. Of his successors, only Charles V bothered to seek a papal coronation, since a near-enough imperial title was available without one. Though in formal documents and inscriptions these rulers are still referred to by their strict legal title of imperator electus, their contemporaries generally just called them "emperors," and so do later historians. --Jfruh 16:29, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

thanks

[edit] rename article into House of Habsburg?

Shouldn't this article be renamed into House of Habsburg in order to be in compliance with other royal houses such as House of Windsor and House of Bourbon, as well as the categories themselves? Gryffindor 08:48, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

I urge caution. Both of the other examples are currently reigning; in these cases the "House of .." is necessary for disambiguation purposes. How important does a family have to be in order to be "House of ..."? Is Hohenlohe important enough? How about Rothschild or Hearne? Noel S McFerran 10:16, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
I'd suggest that a family would have to be sovereign to get "House of". This would exclude the Rothschilds and Hearnes. It would probably include the Hohenlohes, who were sovereign at least from 1803 to 1806, although I'm not certain how to deal with mediatized comital families like, say, the Castells, or the Erbachs. (I note that the Erbach disambiguation page links to the family at House of Erbach, which does not yet exist). john k 12:10, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
I would support this article being renamed to House of Habsburg. Charles 16:10, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Oppose. House of Windsor disambiguates from Windsor Castle, Windsor, Ontario usw. The dynasty here is clearly the primary usage; we don't even have an article on the eponymous castle; the mentions Habichtsburg link back to here. Let's keep things simple, and avoid masking links. Septentrionalis 22:23, 30 October 2006 (UTC)
For the rest, I propose condensing this discussion on Talk:Wittelsbach, where it seems to have started. Septentrionalis 22:29, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Queen consorts

Why are only French queen consorts specified? There've been Habsburg queen or empress consorts of many countries - Denmark, Sweden, Poland, Hungary, Bohemia, Spain, the Holy Roman Empire, Portugal, Sardinia, the Two Sicilies, Belgium, Bavaria, Austria, Saxony...pretty much everywhere in Europe except Russia, the British Isles, and the Balkans. john k 19:39, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

And Catherine of Aragon. Septentrionalis 00:35, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Catherine was the daughter of Ferdinand and Isabella, and as such, was not a Habsburg, but a Trastamara. Otherwise she'd be called "Catherine of Austria." john k 11:48, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Oh no! The liberals have gotten to this article also!

"Wikipedia often uses foreign spelling of words, even though most English speaking users are American. Look up "Most Favored Nation" on Wikipedia and it automatically converts the spelling to the British spelling "Most Favoured Nation", even there there are far more American than British users. Look up "Division of labor" on Wikipedia and it automatically converts to the British spelling "Division of labour," then insists on the British spelling for "specialization" also.[3]. Enter "Hapsburg" (the European ruling family) and Wikipedia automatically changes the spelling to Habsburg, even though the American spelling has always been "Hapsburg". Within entries British spellings appear in the silliest of places, even when the topic is American. Conservapedia favors American spellings of words." [1]

You just can't make this stuff up. - Ta bu shi da yu 08:43, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

So are they trying to say that the Habsburgs are an American topic, or didn't they think through the comment carefully enough? Wait...don't answer that question. BigHaz - Schreit mich an 05:55, 12 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Habsburg-Lorraine as a cadet branch of the House of Lorraine?

A number of succession boxes for monarchs of the House of Habsburg-Lorraine state that it is a branch of the House of Lorraine. Save for the descendants of Francis Stephen and Maria Theresa, are there any male-line descendants of the House of Lorraine? If not, the House of Habsburg-Lorraine isn't a branch of the House of Lorraine, it IS the House of Lorraine. Charles 17:26, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Good question... Gryffindor 22:29, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
There was a post that was on ATR, which is now apparently lost, that after a certain point in the 1700s or 1800s with the death of a member of the House of Lorraine that the House of Habsburg-Lorraine was the entire house of Lorraine. At that point, Habsburg-Lorraine was no longer a branch, senior or otherwise, of the house of Lorraine but an entire house all in itself. After that point, members of the House of Habsburg-Lorraine are members of the "top" house, if that makes sense. Charles 23:40, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] France

Why does the box about the Habsburgs list France as one of the countries they ruled? The Habsburgs have only been consorts in France. The box should only list countries they were regent in. Emperor001 (talk) 13:40, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Founder

Why does the box say that the founder was Otto II, Count of Habsburg? He wasn't the first count. Why is he listed as the founder. Wouldn't the founder be the first cout? Emperor001 (talk) 13:48, 4 March 2008 (UTC)