Talk:Horses in warfare/Archive 1

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Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

New and Improved - December 2006

After extensive discussion and hours of work, this article has been edited, sourced (mostly, more always needed and YOU can help!) and merged with the old War Horse article. I've nominated it for a Good Article to see what kind of outside feedback we get, GA editors tend to provide more useful input than at Peer Review.

More info is always needed on non-western cultures and certain historical eras (within reason, the article is already well over 32kb), given how contentious some of the debates here have been, it may be wise to suggest changes here before editing. Montanabw 07:15, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Also: If anyone is good at creating archives, would you be so kind as to archive everything on this page that was posted prior to December 5th, when the merge "went live?"Montanabw 07:15, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

Cavalry tactics

Cavalry tactics is listed as main article on 17th, 18th, 19th century horses, but has almost nothing to say about it and does not concern in any way the horses used then. Wandalstouring 14:40, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Outline

It's nice you started an outline, but first of all we should make it clear what the artcile is going to be about. As far as I understood its aim is to present horses and not types of military, so organizing it by types of military is the wrong approach, instead we need a categorization on types of horses and then tell about their use. Wandalstouring 14:43, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Missing are for example the small horses used in northern Africa (the Numidian cavalry was famous for their agility). They are relatives of the Andalusian horse. Wandalstouring 18:52, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I think we don't have consensus as to what the article is about. The horse people-- those who created this article and those who have contributed to it since, want to know about ways horses were used in warfare. We don't give a rat's rear about military tactics (which I know is obvious) other than to know how horses contributed and what people did with them. So we like the history lesson, with links to the military tactics pages for those who want to dig deeper. That's why I sorted by tactics and historical era--horse people don't know much about tactics and are curious about the basic WAYS horses were used, and people in general are pretty ignorant about history.
The types of horses used in warfare can be summed up in a sentence: Big ones, middle-sized ones and small ones. Sorry to sound snarky, but I guess what do you want to know? Sorting by type would make for a short, dull article: "Small horses have greater endurance and were used for communications, reconnaissance and light cavalry in some of the cultures that had light cavalry, except 18th and 19th century cavalry, who rode Medium-sized horses because they could carry more stuff. Medium-sized horses were usually used to pull wagons, various types of artillery, and carry certain types of heavy cavalry, other than the European knights of the late middle ages, who loaded themselves up with so much armor that they needed a heavy draft horse to carry them. Draft horses were also used to carry really fat kings, and to pull extremely heavy wagons and heavy artillery." End of article.
Beyond general types for speed, transport and sheer bulk, there are dozens and dozens of articles on modern horse breeds, and frankly, NONE of them are exactly the same breed as was used in warfare even 500 years ago, with the possible exceptions being the "small horses used in northern Africa" which were either Barbs or Arabs, the Andalusian horse itself, and the Arabian (which was one ancestor of the Barb and the Andalusian, though neither of the other breeds want to admit it--all three want to be the "purest" horse breed in the world along with the Akhal-Teke and the now-extinct Turkoman horse). Arguably the Friesian, Shire and Percheron were around in 1500, but Thoroughbred hadn't yet developed. Most breeds that were around in 1500 are extinct today, other than via crossbred descendents. Go back 1000 years and it gets fuzzier. (I mean, was William the Conquerer the ONLY commander on an Andalusian-type animal? Probably not, the same type of horse was probably imitated by every other nobleman who wanted to be like the King. But the evidence is (as you have pointed out) pretty fuzzy--historians are rarely horse people and horse people rarely write history.)

And then, you think YOU have been fussy about this article when we have been wrong on military tactics,, just WAIT until someone starts to say which breeds are the ancestors of which other breeds and which breeds have been "pure" since Allah created the first horse from the sand and the south wind--then watch that pi**ing match begin! The problem is that the source material is worse...we won't know a lot of connections between breeds until the horse genome is mapped. Was the Great Horse of Europe the ancestor of the Shire, the Friesian, or both? Or was the Friesian the Great Horse itself, adding yet another breed to the list of those claimed to be "pure" since Eohippus crawled out of the swamp? We just don't know...

It's also tough to write on training, and there are also tons of training articles already on Wikipedia too. Virtually all training manuals for horses were written by and for the military up until the 20th century. So basically, even modern training is derived from the military model, they go hand in hand. Though I'd be curious what you want to know, maybe somethng could be done beyond the little bit that is in War horse. We have some treatises on methodology, but the problems are twofold: 1) the basics for training horses are unchanged since the days of Xenophon (i.e. ancient Greece): Again, it's short: Be firm but kind and teach them not to be afraid of things. 2) Everything else reads like a discussion of the torture techniques of the Spanish Inquisition. That and to go into details on any other variations, like perhaps how the Mongols trained their horses, would be a whole separate article.
I'm not saying this can't be done, I'm just saying that there are two main audiences here, with very different goals, issues and questions: horse enthusiasts and military enthusiasts. I'm open to comments on structuring and content. But as I say, if you have actual source material to add, please go ahead and add it. Just be bold and start writing. The horse articles typically have pretty significant edits done with very little chat, though the unwritten rule seems to be to not cut other people's stuff, but rather to frame it as a debate...the form "some say this, but others say that." Sorry to go on, just trying to frame my own thoughts. Montanabw 06:30, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
Fine you summed up the different types of horses so easily. As long as the article is centered on the use of horses, pure breed and its origin is irrelevant. The structure of the cavalry tactics does a lot more generalization and cares less about specific national types of cavalry. If you want to write it in connection to this article, you have to restructure:
small horses
medium horses
big horses
give some examples (no full listing) for each type and tell more about their abilities. Say when they were used in what kind of troops (light cavalry, heavy cavalry, dragoons, chariots, etc.). Afterwards we can have the focus on the training of these horses. This is the part that makes the difference between a war horse and a horse. Wandalstouring 15:05, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

doubious statement

"While the average horse can carry approximately 25% of its body weight, and pull approximately 50% of its weight, [citation needed] adding weight also reduces speed, as is seen today with the modern race horse."

a) sources missing b) there are sources stating else c) pull under what conditions?

Some is here: http://www.gaitedhorses.net/Articles/HRiderGuide.shtml

Looking for better sources where "the study" is, for example. The U.S. Calvary published “The Cavalry Manual of Horse Management”, by Frederick L. Devereux, Jr., in 1941. He recommended that the collective weight of rider and gear not exceed 20% of the total weight of the horse. These were horses in top condition whose riders’ very lives depended on the horse's ability to carry them long miles, often at speed. It stands to reason that if they were to incorporate a margin of error, it would be on the side of the horse being overly capable of carrying its rider, rather than less so. Comparably, a study of 374 competitive trail riding horses compared horse/rider weight relationships. They concluded that these horses can easily carry over 30% of their body weight for 100 miles and not only compete, but compete well. As would be expected, good body condition and bone structure were found to be paramount. Bone structure was evaluated using the front leg cannon bones as representative of general structure.

Looking at modern horse pulling competitions, things like show rules start out with two horse "lightweight" teams (under 3300 lbs combined) starting the competition at 1500 lbs plus the weight of the sled, "heavyweight" teams (over 3300 pounds combined) starting at 2000 lbs per sled, then they add 200-500 pounds per round so the 50% figure is close. Some competitions start out higher. But will try to find sanctioned rules or something better than the county fair rule lists that I am digging up so far. Horse pulls represent an extreme, and they only pull a short distance. Montanabw 22:11, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Pulling numbers are harder to pin down than carrying numbers: Traditional pulling contests for Russian draft horses consist of three parts: 1) a trot pull of 50 kg of traction power (which, very roughly speaking translates into 1.5 tons) over a distance of two kilometers; 2) a walk pull, also over a distance of two kilometers, but with three times as much weight, i.e., 150 kg of traction power (or approximately 4.5 tons); and 3) endurance or maximum distance pulling 300 kg of traction power (or close to 9 tons).

This last term, "traction power," deserves explanation. In many, but not all, Russian publications weight is expressed in kilograms of traction power (measurable by a dynamometer) rather than of load weight. Because the force required to pull a weight depends on the road surface (smooth or rough, for example) and on the type and design of the pulling sledge, load weight alone is not an especially useful measure of comparison. Using the measurement of traction power, horses and contests conducted at different times and in different locations can be compared.

Finding stuff that a horse pulling a barge on water can pull 50 times its weight, a horse pulling a wheeled carriage on a smooth road can pull 6 times its weight. Horse pull competition pulls a sled of rocks over dirt, no wheels--the toughest form of pulling there is. The 50% pulling capacity is probably a safe bet. Montanabw 23:05, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

No, the 50% capacity is a total misconception. Delete it and write about traction power and state what your sources say. Wandalstouring
Took a stab at it. The stuff on traction power needs some style tweaks to explain it better, I am somewhat confused...I made an attempt to clarify it, but as I don't quite "get" the concept (other than that horses have to follow the basic laws of physics like everything else) I may not have helped...fix as you see fit. Montanabw 04:11, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

War horses versus cavalry versus everything else

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree with what this article is about. General types are necessary but not sufficient. We may have to use a lot of headers with the "main" template, but short summaries of all the basic types of military uses are what the horse-oriented readers want.

I don't agree that this article can just focus on types of horses, but I DID add some basic material to get the thing started. Yes, it's unsourced for now. Most of the sources on weight were over on the Talk:War horse page. You can add them if you want. If not, I'll add them later when I have some time. In the meantime, the citation tag will suffice. Montanabw 18:48, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

The other problem is that the articles cavalry, cavalry tactics, chariot, chariot tactics, knight, horse artillery, dragoon, destrier, and everything else have a lot of overlap, contradictions, confusion, etc. You want to make some other people's lives miserable for awhile, go take a look at these and apply your standards. Oh, and if you really want to have fun, check out the Barb article and the Friesian horse articles. Apply your piercing gaze to those but beware, they may make your head explode, especially the Friesian article! I've even thrown up my hands in despair on those...

As for training, what are you after? Really, almost all modern horse training is derived from military uses...a "war horse" is just a horse that, in addition to being trained to ride or drive, has been "bombproofed" to put up with noise, jostling, confusion, etc...really little different from a horse used for crowd control today. They learned drills, just like drill teams do today. And any cutting horse today usually has to be trained NOT to bite the cows--biting and kicking to make space are instinctive for a horse and behaviors they would have exhibited on the battlefield. So what else are you looking for? I'm serious. There was nothing magic about training war horses, just time and resources. Montanabw 18:48, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

No need for a nuke defence with capital letters. I think I made it pretty clear, keep things simple. If a reader wants to read about war horses it is enough to inform him about these and in case of interest give him links to more specific info. There are several questions on how a war horse is trained, as a horse is no predator and thus no animal that feels comfortable in a killing environment. There are examples for the training of chariot horses for example. It is sufficient if you give an overview about old training methods for war horses. I will take a look at other articles concerning war horses, but not for now. In the article I will delet all unnecessary headers. Wandalstouring 20:57, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Thoughts on article

I still disagree with you entirely that "warhorse" applies equally to all horses used in warfare - for a start I think it has far greater association in the popular mind with chargers and destriers from the medeival period than it does with, say, horses used to draw British chariots, or Numidiam cavalry mounts. I think the idea of a Horses in Warfare article is great - it should be an overaching article at the head of the superstructure, giving a summary of horses uses (cavalry mounts, chariots, drawing supply wagons, etc, etc) and linking to main articles on each of those, as well as breed type, origins of horses in warfare, etc. I still strongly feel that once this article is written and subsumed some of the current content of warhorse, that war horse should be a disambiguation page between Horses in Warfare generally and a specific warhorse or [[charger [horse type)]] page, which should be rewritten specifically on the topic of chargers etc. My disctionary describes war-horse as "a powerful horse used in war" (my emphasis), and equates it to a charger, which in turn is "A chivalric or medieval name for a heavy war horse". Thoughts?? - PocklingtonDan 10:19, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

You are talking about the destrier. Please remember there are many people reading this article and for example for a Native American Medieval chargers are pretty irrelevant if he wants to know more about his ancestor's war horses. Wandalstouring 13:00, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Topic headings

I like the material you added on training, I appreciate the sense of what non-horse people interested in military matters want to know. However, I am going to return some, though not all of the other proposed headers because I believe these encompass topics that previous versions of the article included. Again, I emphasize that there are two very different audiences for this article, with differing needs for information. Montanabw 22:08, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

No, just cut it. As long as there is no editor writing that stuff, there is no reason to have an empty header. I do most of the work on cavalry tactics and such in the military project. This is simply asking way too much and it is really hard work to make an acceptable division there. For example mixing up India and China is like mixing up the Boers and Comanche cavalry forces. In the current form there is the possibility to add this stuff under training so, the training is told respective to the later use in war. If I have time I can write a little bit about this. Wandalstouring 20:54, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I am OK with it being out for now, as your "historical deployment" heading is fine for the moment, but this IS a sandbox, and an empty header to me offers other editors the chance to add appropriate material. However, I vehemently disagree with your statement that this could all be put under training, because while equipment, tactics and tools vary from culture to culture, I'm not sure you understand that horses are horses everywhere in the world and basic training concepts really aren't dramatically different...some more humane than others, that's about it. Pretty much like boot camp for soldiers...the way humans learn skills doesn't change, we all have the same brains... one culture may have different weapons or terrain, but you aren't going to be able to violate the basic laws of physics or human nature...same is true for horses... Montanabw 21:39, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Well, I have been a recruit in a military boot camp and I have word of others who were in different boot camps, there are some really big differences. Wandalstouring 22:29, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

See, a charger needs a different training than a light cavalry horse or a dragoon horse or a chariot pulling horse. Wandalstouring 22:31, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

I never said otherwise as to training for different conditions, weaponry or whatever, you actually make my point is that cultural differences have to be discussed and the best way to do it is by historical period. What I'm not sure you "get" is that a given culture is going to teach a "civilian" horse to drive or ride the same way you teach a "war horse" to ride or drive. You desensitize a horse to odd objects (i.e. weapons, etc) in a certain manner no matter what the odd object is. You physically condition a horse for a given climate, terrain and workload whether it is peace or war.

My point about soldiers is that human beings learn things after several repetitions, we respond to verbal commands (as opposed to touch, which is used on horses), most soldiers learn to make up into a formation of some sort and march, and they need physical conditioning...that was what's the same. Maybe reading is a better example. Sure there are different ways of teaching people to read, but we all use our eyes...most methods start out by first teaching the alphabet, then little words, then big words, etc...

We may be talking about different things here. But the one thing we can't do is describe how to train a horse on this page it would take forever, it's a topic of a book or treatise...see horse training. You can only hit the tip of the iceberg, and a lot of individual training methods are unknown anyway because no one wrote them down. All we have are general principles.

Culture has the biggest impact: A European charger was going to be broke to saddle, desensitized to the weird things it encounters, etc. with techniques not that different from a light cavalry horse of a later period--the difference is the stuff they are shown, the varying degree of humaneness or brutality of the trainer (just like some drill sergeants--quite individually varied), the physical conditioning involved...and the changes of the culture itself...

There's more differences in diets of the horses. And I assume you would prefer we don't get into feeding war horses...the Bedouin fed their horses dates and camel's milk. And that's not as odd as some. Montanabw 23:20, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Why not, you did a good, but unsourced, job in the intro after you stated there wasn't much to say. Just say the tip of the iceberg about training here. If someone really wants to go into details there are still a lot of very specific articles on certain cavalry forces or types of cavalry forces where such things can be said and linked to this article. If feeding the horse makes a difference, tell the reader about it and never mind giving examples and sources. This is about the big picture, for real detail work you simply outsource. Wandalstouring 23:55, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Research thoughts

This site is probably a good source for a lot of what we are doing: http://www.kyhorsepark.com/imh/kyhpl2a.html

The table of contents for their entire history section is here: http://www.imh.org/imh/exh1.html

WOW!

And FYI, haven't read this, but looks like an interesting source: http://www.tamu.edu/upress/BOOKS/2005/livingston.htm War Horse Mounting the Cavalry with America's Finest Horses Phil Livingston and Ed Roberts "Critical to waging war throughout the ages of history has been the war horse—effective cavalry mounts and sure-footed pack mules. Cavalry chargers, acting as means of transport for soldiers, rations, guns, ammunition, and supplies, formed the battle machine and acted as platform for the leader of the charge. The cavalry tradition continues today: helicopter pilots and armored tanks are the modern cavalry. From Revolutionary War times through 1948, the Quartermaster Corps of the U.S. Army supplied the mounts, draft and pack animals, and stallions of impressive bloodlines—Thoroughbreds (including the first Triple Crown Winner), Arabians, Morgans, and Lippizaners—to farmers and ranchers from Massachusetts, to Virginia, to Nebraska, Texas and California, border to border and coast to coast, for breeding to selected mares. The offspring were sought-after horses of war throughout the military services in the United States and by our allies arond the world—and were coveted spoils of war by enemy nations. These war horses also had strong civilian demand and dramatically influenced equestrian bloodlines across the country. War Horse is exactingly researched, lavishly illustrated with over 130 archival photographs, and is written with thoroughness, excitement and many humorous anecdotes." I will have to see if I can get this via interlibrary loan, may take a couple weeks.

Someone who cares may also want to see what these folks do: http://www.warhorsefoundation.com/

All for now. Montanabw 23:37, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

What has this to do with war horses????

A team of two modern draft horses, weighing approximately 1,700 lbs pounds each, often pull 3,000 lbs in weight-pull competitions, dragging a unwheeled weighted sled on level dirt for a short distance[citation needed]. On the other hand, horses pulling a wheeled carriage on a paved road can pull up to six times their weight for many miles. The method by which a horse was hitched to a vehicle also influenced how much it could pull: Horses could pull greater weight after the invention of the horse collar circa A.D. 800 than they could when hitched to a vehicle by means of an ox yoke or a breast collar in earlier times.[1] The very term "horsepower" was based on the amount of dead weight a draft horse could pull, and was defined by James Watt as 33,000 foot pounds. Depending on weight and terrain, chariots and wagons could be pulled by a single animal, most often a team of two, and occasionally supplies or heavy weaponry would be pulled by teams of six to eight or even more horses[citation needed].


Wandalstouring 14:14, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Wrestling with explaining that horses can pull a bit more than half their weight on a dead drag sled of rocks about 50 feet, 6 times their weight pulling a wheeled vehicle over a road, 50 times their weight pulling a barge on water. Preferably in plain English. You see, I have a graduate degree in a non-scientific field, but never required a single physics class to get there...I never even had ONE year of physics, let alone two, not even in high school. Maybe a semester, worked in with other stuff...I do not get how 50-300kg traction force is calculated to be a couple of tons...it's all gibberish to me, so I suspect it will also be gibberish to a lot of other people.

You could top it if you say and most people around here can't read, but that would be the only thing how education could be worse in my opinion. Montanabw 04:11, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Education running that low in the USA? Well, in Europe at least most people do have enough physics to understand. This is so low in physics like telling rocks fall down. Sorry but your lengthy unverified information contains lots of stuff that doesn't actually have to do anything with this. You know nothing about physics and then try to give a definition of horse power wtf? Wandalstouring 08:21, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I haven't heard of too many places that require two years of "Physics." Two years of assorted sciences, yes, but of the person's choice...biology, earth science, physics, chemistry, etc...you're getting nasty again, you really need to cool the attitude. Montanabw 23:05, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm just shocked and wonder how you would understand lots of things in everyday life like magnetism, electricity, ballistics, etc. Here, anybody learns all of the mentioned subjects for several years. I do have contact with people of low educational level and I could no matter talk with them about subjects requiring knowledge of all the mentioned subjects, no problem. I learned a lot from them and they told me things I didn't know before. You could top it if you say and most people around here can't read, but that would be the only thing how education could be worse in my opinion.Wandalstouring 19:16, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

Civility

You are crossing the civility line once again, but I'll try to explain it to you in very simple terms. It is one thing to have general knowledge of scientific principles, it is another to be able to explain it all from memory. It also is a mistake to assume that all intelligent people know, for example, the basics of traction force. Many intelligent people don't give a rat's rear end for more than the basics. And don't need to. There is a vast body of human knowledge, too much for any individual to know it all. When we write for Wikipedia, articles not meant for a specialized audience need to be written with a minimum of technical language. For example: Can you describe the structure of a musical fugue? Can you play the piano? Can you list the names--from memory--of every President of the United States? And their political party affiliation? And explain the significant highlights of each administration? Do you know the contents of the United States Constitution--or, for that matter, the Constitution of your own nation? Can you read and interpret a legal opinion? How much Latin do you know? Do you know the Rule of Shelly's case? What is res judicata? Have you ever heard about complex psychological conditions...like antisocial personality disorder? Do you know that schizophrenia is NOT the same as Multiple Personality Disorder? How about genetics? Do you know what an allele is? How about an autosomal recessive? My point is not for you to say that you of course know about all these things, but rather to point out that the human brain only holds so much. The rest of it we look up. People specialize. The educational rigor of most Western European nations is very strong up through the secondary level, no question your schools are quite good. The US catches up at the University level...however, there is specialization. The Music major in the USA doesn't have to pass a physics class to get a degree, for example, but can YOU play the violin, Saxophone AND the Clarinet? Now, please stop covering your disinclination to write with clarity by arrogant nonsense about how everyone should know and value precisely the body of information you do. Montanabw 23:52, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I can expressed being shocked, simply because I consider something basic like counting, reading or writing. What is arrogant about being shocked? I humbly apologize for not writing explicitly that educational level equals not intellect.
Traction force is lowest basic level of physical understanding. Wandalstouring 17:25, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Reenactment

There are two possiblities:

a) We add links to every battle article on wikipedia which reports the presence of horses for somebody could have the idea to reenact it.

b) We link only to articles about reenactment events were horses are present.

Wandalstouring 14:22, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Oh gawd, NOT a huge laundry list! Sometimes a couple examples helps people understand what we are talking about, but dear oh dear, even just linking to reenactments where there are horses would be huge...other than the locals around here who reenact the Battle of the Little Bighorn every year, and a kid I know who is into SCA stuff who keeps begging his mom to let him use her horse for jousting, I really know very little about this area. Whatever else, let's just keep it simple. FYI, I think it was either the SCA or the reenactment people who started the original War Horse site, just guessing from what was in it before we started moving over stuff from the horse article. Montanabw 03:55, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
If there is no article on the reenactment here - it was not considered important enough - so it is not worth mentioning, no matter what people do in the hood. The battle of Hastings reenactment is renown worldwide, very big and had enough attention for someone to actually write here about it already. Wandalstouring 08:55, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

For example in Germany the de:Kaltenberger Ritterturnier using very protective late medieval armour such as Schaller helmets and hiring professional stuntmen. Wandalstouring 21:47, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Odd, I'd never heard that there was a Battle of Hastings reenactment. maybe people out here in the west just have lives that don't involve wikipedia. Hmm? Don't be so insulting. Or so Eurocentric. Little Big Horn, AKA "Custer's Last Stand" is the most famous of all battles between the Indians and the US Army. If you don't know American history, not my problem. Montanabw 23:02, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

I don't mind which battle is how famous to anyone. Does it have an article yes/no. Battle of Hastings reenactment does have one and you deleted the link several days ago several times, so you did read it before. Eurocentric is a prejudice. I did research whether there were other articles about reenactment events with horses documented in wikipedia. It seems only for Hastings and Kaltenberg was someone not too lazy to write something. OK, there is an article on the American civil war reenactment, even if there are horses nowhere in sight. Wandalstouring 19:13, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

war horse

While war hose still contains lots of questionable material, the information here by far outclasses it in all fields the article should be about. Wandalstouring 23:54, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I was thinking about slowly merging in some of the material here into War Horse, but then I starting debating which article TITLE should be kept after the merge? Apparently the only person who cares about the "War Horse" definition is that one fellow who is not weighing in on anything else, and I can cite sources that use the term war horse back in antiquity if we really must. "War horse" is the phrase used in most of the horse articles that link there, though I realize a redirect makes it not matter terribly. I also notice that War Horse is still being edited by other contributors, so I would want to be careful about just wiping the article. Perhaps you could merge some of the stuff we've done here into War Horse for now and see what people do. Perhaps put the material you dislike in War Horse at the bottom...I don't know, just thinking aloud. Thoughts? Comments? Montanabw 04:37, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Also, don't be in a huge hurry to dump the other stuff in War Horse yet. I still think there is a place for some historical description of various periods. I am getting back one of my better texts on Monday (loaned it to a friend) and am hoping to make a library run to get Bennett's book _Conquerers_ this week. May be able to source some material--and maybe toss some as well. Maybe merge material from there to here as sources are added would be the better approach. Montanabw 04:37, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
So, two questions: Which should be the article that is the base that material gets merged into for working purposes? (I nominate Horses in Warfare) Then, which title should be the one we actually keep once the final version is ready to go live? (I nominate War Horse) Montanabw 04:37, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I vote Horses in Warfare for all. War horse becomes a disambiguation page. Wandalstouring 05:15, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Show Jumping

What is the source for the information on the origins of show jumping? I always thought show jumping was based off of fox hunting, started as a civilian pastime ("lepping" contests), and its background had nothing to do with the military. Eventer 20:57, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Was about dragoons, messengers and scouts crossing rough terrain, although there are other disciplines more connected with this. Wandalstouring 05:14, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Both answers are probably true...fox hunting clearly has its roots, but military messengers had to jump stuff from time to time. Clearly the military dominated all equestrian events at the Olypics and folks with military connections like Caprilli developed modern show jumping. Much as I really, really, really hate to agree with Wandal on ANYTHING <grin>, I have to admit that we do need some sources on this. Montanabw 20:49, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Stirrup

This article doesn't really go into the changes in horse warfare as a result of the invention of the stirrup. This is a radical and major change in the history of warfare, and as it directly impacts the uses of horses in warfare, I think a section showing where the stirrup came in and how it impacted horse warfare is needed. KP Botany 23:15, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

There is a little bit on it in the technology section, but if you want to add more material to the technology section explaining more about the stirrup, go for it. I can review and edit for style as may be needed, but I've put a good 20 hours into this article, and am, at the moment, tired of working on it. However, please be sure to properly footnote anything you add so we can check out the source. One of the editors on this piece, as you may have noticed, is obsessed with verifiability and I certainly don't have the energy to go find references for everything myself, so we sure need all editors to this article to note their sources. If you want to propose an addition before inserting it, go ahead and do so here, as you see this has been done for other sections...But your help and input will be appreciated! Montanabw 05:05, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
It's easy to get burnt out on an article, just take a long break and come back. It turns out that it's harder writing an encyclopedia than it seems. I don't really want to add the information myself, as I'm not overly interested in it, however I have a sibling who is a military historian who is an expert in the area, so maybe I will at least get some references. I think it's fine to be picky about sourcing, it saves time later on. I've also found checking other peoples sources in certain areas that editors can get sloppy with using references, so it's just easier for everyone. But take a break, the article is moving strongly in the right direction. KP Botany 17:13, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

There is also a whole article on the stirrup, maybe look it over and give me a sense of what I'm missing here. The article here is getting long and people often suggest breaking it out when that happens, so wondering if the link to the stirrup article covers your concerns, or if I REALLY DO need to add stuff here. Montanabw 20:36, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay, that's a pretty good suggestion. I will look download and look it over. KP Botany 00:38, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

GA on hold

I've placed this article on hold at GA. Although I think it's mostly well-written and admirably comprehensive, there are a few issues that prevent me from passing it straight off.

First, there are several "citation needed" tags in the article. Those need to be addressed before the article can pass GA. (One has to do with knights' armor, and is only tangentially related to the topic, so removal might be a valid means of addressing it as well. Others, for instance in the "Chariot Warfare" section, seem more important to the topic.)

Second, there are a handful of other statements that could use citation. For instance, "Contrary to Nazi propaganda of the era, the majority of Polish cavalry charges were in fact successful, and all were conducted against infantry, not tanks." makes a controversial (judging by its phrasing) claim, and should be cited. The section on "Training and dressage" could also use a few more citations. I wouldn't fail the article just because of these, but their addition would be beneficial.

Third, the prose could use some editing. There are a couple of unwieldy constructions. For instance, "Light oriental-type horses" (isn't there a more precise term that could be used instead of this awkward phrase?) Likewise, is there a reason to say "draft-type horses" instead of "draft horses"? Then there's the first paragraph of the technology section: "Horses were probably ridden in prehistory before they were driven, though evidence is scant.[13][14] However, the invention of the wheel is widely touted as a major technological innovation that gave rise to chariot warfare. However, the demise of the chariot as a tool of war did not end the need for technological innovations in pulling technologies." That's a lot of "thoughs" and "howevers" to keep straight. A good copyedit could make the article a lot clearer.

Fourth, the image dealing with the Slovenian armed forces is tagged as copyrighted, usable with permission. This wouldn't stop the article from being judged a GA, but it might prevent an FA rating in the future. I'm not entirely certain about that, but I know that there's recently been a move away from using such images where they might possibly be replaced with free ones, and I'd suggest at least looking into whether a free replacement conveying similar information might be available.

Fifth, get your units straight. Some points use Imperial, some metric, and some both. I recommend both -- but make sure it's consistent, either all given in metric with Imperial in parentheses ("1 in. (2.54cm)") or all the other way around ("2.54cm (1 in.)").

I'm confident that the most vital issues can be dealt with quickly, so the hold will give you a week to work on it. A lot of progress has clearly been made with it in the last weeks. Shimeru 06:07, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Made an initial round of tweaks. Tried to remove the jargon (draft-type and oriental-type are terms of art among the horse crowd, but if awkward to laypeople, will fix), will keep working on the prose. If you see more spots where citation is needed, could you throw in a few {{fact}} tags for me? Sometimes when one is too "close" to an article, you just don't see certain things and your help in that respect would be much appreciated! Thanks. Montanabw 05:19, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Looks good so far... I didn't notice anything obvious in terms of further citation. If those are terms of art, then perhaps there's an article explaining them that could be linked to, or a short explanation could be provided? (Perhaps not, if the terms are shorthand for the description in each of those light-medium-heavy sections.) I don't see the current phrasing as lacking anything, but of course I am a layperson, and there might be a distinction I'm unaware of. Shimeru 07:43, 18 December 2006 (UTC)