Talk:Holy Wednesday

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Holy Wednesday → Spy Wednesday — I feel that the traditional and common name for the day would be a more appropriate title for the article. Thanks, Anupam^Talk 04:52, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Survey

Add  # '''Support'''  or  # '''Oppose'''  on a new line in the appropriate section followed by a brief explanation, then sign your opinion using ~~~~. Please remember that this is not a vote; comments must include reasons to carry weight.

• Oppose - I'd prefer 'Great and Holy Wednesday' or even 'Great Wednesday' myself. Of course, that's just because I'm a Byzantine. On the other hand, almost nobody outside of the Anglican religious organisation calls it 'Spy Wednesday' anymore, so Holy Wednesday is an acceptable compromise for me. InfernoXV 18:52, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose "Spy Wednesday"? Never heard of it. It can't be all that common. TCC (talk) (contribs) 23:24, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose. Per the sensible comments above. -- Pastordavid 03:16, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose. I have worked in theological libraries for over twenty years. "Spy Wednesday" is definitely not the "common name for the day". Noel S McFerran 03:30, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose. Even attested Orthodox terms for a universal Christian practice are likely to be more appropriate for the Greek or Russian Wikipedias than for us. As for this, neither I nor an Anglican acquaintance have heard of it; it appears to be a (largely Irish) piece of slang, attested in folklore dictionaries and 19-century issues of Notes and Queries. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 05:12, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose - as above, I have never heard the use "Spy". -- Beardo 03:40, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
• Oppose in all my years as a good little catholic and altar boy, I have never, ever heard it called "Spy Wednesday". Though I did have to sit through a slightly senile priest's delivery of a "Hokey Wednesday" sermon. 205.157.110.11 04:05, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
• Comment - I can attest that in Irish Roman Catholicism it is indeed called "Spy Wednesday", and is followed by "Holy Thursday". While I can well believe that most people have never heard of "Spy Wednesday", I can equally well believe that most people have never heard of "Holy Wednesday" either; though for educated Christians the meaning of the latter would be easier to guess at. If there is in fact no common name for the day then we should use the least uncommon name. I would request those who oppose the proposed rename to add some citations to the article to support their contention that "Holy Wednesday" is a more common name in English. Of the 10 current references, two don't name or refer to the Wednesday in question; five use "Spy Wednesday" (the Time magazine article as a pun), one "Wednesday of Holy Week", one "Great and Holy Wednesday" (with "Holy Wednesday" in the title) and one "Spy Wednesday conversion to Holy Wednesday". Noel S McFerran in particular should have little difficulty digging up some volumes to redress this balance. jnestorius^(talk) 19:41, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

You have got to be kidding. Why don't we also dig up citations that the name of the first month of the year is January? TCC (talk) (contribs) 19:55, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Check out Wikipedia:Common knowledge. If it's so obvious, then finding sources should be as easy as this. jnestorius^(talk) 23:27, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Well, Ye Olde Google Teste finds about 57,000 hits for "Holy Wednesday" and slightly fewer than half that for "Spy Wednesday". TCC (talk) (contribs) 01:38, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks to everyone for participating in this discussion. Jnestorius, thank you for your helpful comments. It is my observation that many individuals who have voiced their opinion on the issue come from the Orthodox Christian background, where Spy Wednesday is not a common name for the holy day. Coming from a Western Christian background, I am aware of many churches that do use the name Spy Wednesday. For example, see Visalia Times-Delta: Church Services, where the term Spy Wednesday is used by an Episcopal Church. A Roman Catholic reference (http://www.fisheaters.com/customslent12.html) that discusses the liturgical year also uses the term Spy Wednesday. A neutral holiday reference states the following:

In my opinion, the term Spy Wednesday seems to reflect the meaning of the day more clearly. In light of these facts, I felt that it was a good idea to rename the article, but I could be wrong. Anyways, we'll see what the outcome of the survey is after discussing and researching the topic in question. Thanks once again. With regards, Anupam^Talk 20:19, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

You have made a mistaken observation. As far as I know, I'm the only Orthodox Christian who responded. InfernoXV is Russian Catholic, which is also in the Eastern tradition. The others are all Roman Catholics and Lutherans where they self-identify at all. 2 out of 7 hardly constitutes "many". The preferred Orthodox term would be "Great Wednesday" anyway. TCC (talk) (contribs) 23:20, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

• I am not, and did not consult, an Orthodox source. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:59, 12 April 2007 (UTC)
• Ditto. Holy Wednesday is the term I am most familiar with, from a thoroughly Western tradition. Officially, our calendar refers to it as Wednesday in Holy Week, but I have never heard anyone actually use the full title in speech. I have never seen, nor heard of before this conversation, "Spy Wednesday," although I have found one or two references to it since. -- Pastordavid 02:47, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I apologize for the mistake. The first two surveyed were from Eastern traditions which led me to make the above statement. If using the convention, Holy Wednesday is the general consensus, I am fine with that. As I previously stated, I introduced the proposition based on references I found and my own experience. Thanks to everyone who participated in the discussion. With warm regards, Anupam^Talk 05:50, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Discussion

Add any additional comments:

• Scholar.google.com
  • Spy Wednesday 38 hits.
  • Holy Wednesday 81 hits.

In each case, there are a handful of false positives, and some repeated titles. For Spy Wednesday, these are William Hood's novel and some Notes and Queries wntries, which are double hit later. The fact that it shows up in N&Q suggests that it was not common English, even in the 19th Century. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:59, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

I find the Vatican's use of "Holy Wednesday" more convincing. jnestorius^(talk) 01:06, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.