Talk:Holy Lance
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[edit] request for more info
I am a descendant of a Baron von Hugle, so I am very interested in his mention in this article; but the link doesn't connect to any one baron, just to a disambiguation page which lists more than one baron by this name. I'm hoping that the person who provided this information will cite his source and also clarify which Baron von Hugle he's referring to.
[edit] Blood and water?
I had always thought that when it said that blood and water came from the wound in Christ's side, it meant that his blood and plasma had already started to separate (meaning he had been dead for a while.) I don't know if that's true, but it's what I've always been taught.
[edit] Older comments
Note: Twentieth century speculations, fantasies and legends woven round this theme are separately treated at Spear of Destiny. Please discuss Nazis and the like at that entry.
- The problem is not with the Nazis (this time). But with lance which is part of the Imperial Regalia. It doesn't look fitting that it is not even mentioned in this article. --Pjacobi 13:17, 21 September 2006 (UTC)
I was just wondering why the article refers to a spear being "jealously guarded" in Echmiadzin, Armenia. I went there. You can see it. Free. Though they don't mind if you leave a donation. Not exactly what i'd call jealous. Perhaps the phrase is a bit dramatic? --jankyalias 19.51 24 Oct. 2006
[edit] About the merge
I merged Spear of Destiny here. (What a nightmare!) I tried me best to rewrite the history section to make it clearer but some of the stuff was confusing or contradictory. I remove all sentences marked with {{fact}} (with one exception):
- Artist Jeffrey Vallance created an artwork in which he made several duplicates of the Lance and distributed them around the world, intending to confuse the identity of the true Lance for future generations. [citation needed]
- Scholars believe the lance in Etschmiadzin is not actually a Roman lance but the head of a Roman standard [citation needed].
- This [the Armenian lance] was never in any proper sense a lance, but rather the head of a standard, and it may conceivably (before its discovery under very questionable circumstances by the crusader have been venerated as the weapon with which certain Jews at Beirut struck a figure of Christ on the Cross; an outrage which was believed to have been followed by a miraculous discharge of blood.
- 1424 Sigismund announced: "It is the Will of God that the Imperial Crown, Orb, Scepter, Crosses, Sword and Lance of the Holy Roman Empire must never leave the soil of the Fatherland."[citation needed]
- When the army of Napoleon approached Nuremberg in the spring of 1796, many were terrified that Napoleon would seize the Spear and rule the world with it[citation needed].
- Though a number of historians cast doubt on Hitler's obsession with the Spear as it was reported by Trevor Ravenscroft et al, recent work by researcher and author Alec MacLellan has unearthed material from Ravenscroft's original source that seems to validate some of the stranger assertions[citation needed].
- There are many prototypes and analogues of the spear in other legends, it can be compared to the ancient Irish weapon, the Spear Luin, and is similar to the Grail legend's "Bleeding Lance", which was eventually claimed to be the Spear of Destiny.[citation needed]
Two references are to a M. Mely, but I can't figure out who he is so I removed them:
- M. Mély published for the first time in 1904, an accurate design of the Roman relic of the lance head, and the fact that it has lost its point is as conspicuous as in other, often quite fantastic, delineations of the Vatican lance.
- Raynaldi, the Bollandists, and many other authorities believed that the lance found in 1098 afterwards fell into the hands of the Turks and was that sent by Bajazet to Pope Innocent, but from M. de Mely's investigations it seems probable that it is identical with the relic now jealously preserved at Etschmiadzin in Armenia
There was a wikilink for Nicetas but that leads to a disambiguation page and none of the people there are said to have lived in the 600's.
I hope this helped! Tocharianne 03:04, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
[edit] pilum
I always thought it was a roman standardized military pilum that that longinus used, one would think that roman built weapons would have been more abundant in that time period and location, and the pilum article sugests it was used from well before christ to well after, so i think it would be good idea to picture a pilum in the article.
- I agree. It always struck me as a bit absurd that the legend involves a lance, a weapon not commonly used until many years later. Roman soldiers, such as Longinus is described as being, would not have been carrying a spear as we traditionally view them, but rather a pila, either a pilum major, or a pilum minor. While it is certainly possible that a spear was used, it is much more likely that a pilum was used. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.49.7.227 (talk) 16:56, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
In the context of translating Medieval texts from Latin a "lance" is a term often used to describe a weapon used by foot soldiers which we would think of as a spear. You can see an example of this in R.Hill's translation of the Gesta Francorum (which I don't have to hand to offer the latin term.). In addition the Medieval people who developed the idea of the Lance wouldn't really have had a mental image of what a pilum was (or really very much about ancient Roman culture, if you look at Medieval images of events in Roman history or the Biblical period they're all dressed in Medieval clothing) so lance is what we end up with. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.137.155.83 (talk) 00:02, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
- The GF always calls that a "lancea" (the discovery of the Holy Lance is here, chapter 25). It calls every spear a "lancea", actually; I don't think "pilum" appears in the entire text. Adam Bishop (talk) 04:25, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Howard Buechner And What He Did Or Did Not Witness
The section "Howard Buechner" contains the following statement: "Buechner was a retired Colonel with the U.S. Army who served in World War II, and had written a book about the Dachau massacre, which he had witnessed." The a WP article about the massacre http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dachau_massacre#Buechner_controversy says that he was NOT an witness: "Buechner did not witness the alleged incident himself". The claim that he did witness the events needs to be sourced. On the other hand, the claim that he witnessed the events at Dachau can be removed without doing any damage to the article, I think. Hi There 07:01, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Hellboy
Wasn't it also mentioned in the movie Hellboy?
In an old German Arthurian legend called Perzeval, I recall in the part when Sir Percival is in the Grail Castle there is a young man holding a lance that continually bleeds alongside the Grail procession. Could this be another reference?Alexander Le Fey (talk) 03:53, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Oops, sorry, forgot to make a new title.Alexander Le Fey (talk) 03:54, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
