Talk:Holocaust in Poland

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[edit] Title

There is article "Holocaust in Nazi-occupated Lithuania", so this one should be Holocaust in Nazi-occupated Poland, due to fact, there was no such state as independend Poland during WW2. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.6.242.136 (talk) 17:24, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Need for expantion

While most of this article is true, there are some things that need further explaining.

It is a common misconception that occupied Poland was a country of horror where only public executions ever happened. In fact, most people were just trying to live their lives under German rule. Though the German policy towards the people was way harsher than in France or Netherlands, most Poles were by no way heroes. It should be enough to say that the Polish Secret State was quite active in Warsaw and it's suburbs but to make a military action in Cracow they needed to move people from the capital.

While it is literally true that there were never a collaborative quasi-government in the occupied Poland, it was just because the Germans never needed or wanted such a thing. There are at least two known cases where signoficant people from pre-war Poland were tryng to establish such a quasi-government, but their attempts were just ignored by Germans.

Another thing - there were of course several thousand heroes who risked their life to help Jews survive and a similar number of so-called Jew-hunters (Polish people who were searching for hiding Jews and reporting them to Germans for money, their Polish name "szmalcownik" is related to their motives - in Polish slang "szmal" or "szmalec" means "money"). But both heroes and Jew-hunters were thousands among millions of Poles who were just unconcerned about their Jewish neighbours getting killed. Many Poles were even openly satisfied about it.

While there were valid military reasons not to help the Warsaw Ghetto uprising in their fight and, above all, not to let the fight spread to other parts of the city, there were virtually no attempt made to let the Ghetto open and enable Jews trapped there, to flee. The only attempt was made by communist Gwardia Ludowa, not recognized by the "official" Secret State.

One can't say that Poles participated, or even appreciated the Holocaust as a rule, but it is a fact, that most of them were trying hard not to think of it and ignore the trains of death.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.210.136.57 (talk • contribs)

The page should be broken up into sections and is lacking references. Also, the above info is very much relevant and should find its place in the article. Pascal.Tesson 12:25, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
I agree with the need for sectioning. More refs would be nice, although it does have some even inline references, which is quite good. As for the above info, some of this info may be useful, but some comments of our anon are erroneus or irrelevant.
It is certainly true that most Poles just 'wanted to live through the war'. I see nothing special here, this was certainly true for all people all around the war.
To say that Poles were not heroes is more controversial. Certainly most of them were not - but on the other hand "Polish citizens have the highest amount of Righteous Among The Nations" (and that's also the highest per capita, too).
Weakness of Polish Secret State is again debatable. Sure, it was not strong enough to throw the Germans out, but it was probably the second largest resistance organization in Europe (after Yougoslavian YNLA I believe) and could carry out major actions like Warsaw Uprising or the entire Operation Tempest.
It is not true that Germans did not want a Polish collaborative government. Yes, I do believe around '39-40 (?), after Vichy was created, there was a minor Polish politician who approached Germans about the creation of a gov in Paris but was rebuked. I can't recall his name. How 'significant' he was (and who was the other) is a matter of debate, especially for when we can dig out their names. But see Kazimierz Bartel - Germans tried to create a Polish collaborative gov after Barbarossa, but failed. Not that either of this seems very relevant here.
Anon later states that the number of Poles who helped the Jews was equal to those who prayed on them. I would like to have some reference for this, because I do have a reference to the contrary: this has some specific mnumbers about the aftermath of the Ghetto Uprising: "The 27,000 Jews in hiding in Warsaw relied on about 50-60,000 people who provided hiding-places and another 20-30,000 who provided other forms of help; on the other hand, blackmailers, police agents, and other actively anti-Jewish elements numbered perhaps 2-3,000, each striking at two or three victims a month. The active helpers of Jews thus made up seven to nine per cent of the population of Warsaw; the Jews themselves, 2.7 per cent; the hunters, perhaps 0.3 per cent" That would indicate that for every "szmalcownik" we have 20 heroes.
Last but not least, AK did help in the Ghetto Uprising. From our article on the Ghetto Uprising: Polish units from Armia Krajowa (AK) and Gwardia Ludowa sporadically attacked German sentry units near the ghetto walls and attempted to smuggle weapons and ammunition inside. One Polish unit from AK, namely KB under the command of Henryk Iwański, even fought inside the Ghetto together with ŻZW and then retreated together to the Aryan side. The AK tried twice to blow up the Ghetto Wall, but without much success. I have now referenced this information to this.
--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 16:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] September 1939 crimes

The Germans murdered hundreds of Jews. Xx236 10:08, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

German 17th Infantry Division

[1]

[edit] Anon's request

I would appreciate some very solid evidence of this apparently rampant anti semitic attitude that has existed in Poland from prior to 1931. thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.215.243.84 (talk • contribs)

[edit] prewar population?

Wasn't the prewar population 3.3 million, not 3 million like it says in the article? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.166.34.51 (talk) 21:11, 28 March 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Short introduction is needed

I doubt that an average reader understands the context. Even the name doesn't explain, it should be rather Holocaust in Germany occupied Poland.

In fact the current article is rather about Attitude of Poles toward Jews during Holocaust than about the holocaust itself. Xx236 17:28, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] tortured and beaten to death

The majority was burned in a barn.Xx236 (talk) 09:03, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A few things to keep in mind

The dichotomy between 'Poles' and 'Jews' that this discussion has been relying on is a false one. Some Polish people before the war were Jewish. Most were not. The same was the case in Austria, Germany, etc. As well, some European Jews (like Scholem) were Zionists and identified very strongly with their religious roots; some (including Tuwim and Tarski) were not. Many (like Popper) were internationalists and had no time for nationalisms of any sort. All this is important to bear in mind because the notion that there were somehow two societies in Poland -- a homogenous, Catholic Gentile one and a distinct Jewish one -- is misleading. I had both Jewish and Catholic Poles in my extended family, as well as Armenians, Austrians and so forth. This was very typical in Galicia.

As well, contrary to what is said above, the Nazi occupation *was* brutal. One could be shot where one stood for whistling Chopin or singing a Polish song, for example. Remember that Poles were all slated for extermination so as to make room for the 'better' races. Because the German elites respected Dutch and French culture, nothing that happened in the West compares to the brutality that Poles (whether Jewish, Catholic, or Freethinker) had to endure. Things were clearly the worst for Jewish people. But everyone lived day-to-day, trying to survive. Many didn't make it.

One more thing: please don't let your dislike of modern day Polish conservatism and Catholicism or of Polish antisemitism (which is all reasonable enough) distort your view of history. Read about the Odessa massacre, just to pick a random example. Poles never did anything of that sort. There were no Polish SS battalions. You don't have to like Poles, but don't smear them. It's just not fair. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.44.175.209 (talk) 17:16, 27 January 2008 (UTC)