Talk:Holden

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[edit] Commodore

The opening paragraph in the Holdern Commodore section implies that the Commodore has been steadily evolving away from it's Opel beginings. This is not the case. The VB, VN and VR? being new designs based on Opel cars. Martyman 05:55, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The Holden VN and VR Commodore were based on the 1986 and 1994 Opel Omega respectively, but these were based on stretched platforms to cater for the needs of the local market. The VB/VC models were identical to the Opel Commodore of the time, but with larger engines. Quiensabe 01:42, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)
The Holden Commodore initially was based on the contemporary Holden Commodore.
However, through the entire life of the model since 1978, the car has had significant engineering differences.
The current Commodore VE has no European equivalent (the European Commodore was succeeded by the Omega, then the Signum- which is a FWD car based on the Vectra), and is an international GM platform for GM RWD vehicles Fitzpatrickjm 13:47, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Do these models exist?

Were the Nissan Primera or Pulsar ever rebadged as Holdens? In the time I've spent in both Australia and New Zealand, I really don't think so. Holden stopped sharing models with Nissan after the Astra was dropped, and Nissan ceased manufacture of cars in Australia with the demise of the Pintara (sold as a Ford Corsair). GM in New Zealand was never affected by the Button Plan, so had no interest in rebadging Nissans as Holdens. There was never a model called the Holden Kadett in NZ- the Kadett was sold as an Opel, although the Opel Astra was eventually sold as a Holden. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Quiensabe (talk • contribs) 01:50, 6 January 2005

The Nissan Primera is only available in Europe. They even put the indicator lever on the wrong side to match other european cars. Also the instrumentation is in the middle of the dash so they can put the steering wheel on either side. Completely designed for europe. You will never see one in Australia. The primera is a big car with a tiny little engine. Can't compete with a commodore V6! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.254.168.102 (talk • contribs) 16:27, 13 July 2005
Primera was available in Japan & NZ as well as Europe. Primera is small/medium car with medium engine (SR20DE etc.), never badged Holden AFAIK. N12 Pulsar was Astra for a while - first paragraph here by more than one contributor? Anyway a really wacky addition to the Holden Exports section would be the Mazda Roadpacer. RB30DE 22:45, 15 September 2006 (UTC)
The Australian made Nissan Pulsar certainly was rebadged in Australia as the Holden Astra- commencing in 1985. The Astra hatch complemented the Isuzu sourced Holden Gemini RB series, which was not available as a 4 door hatchback.
When Nissan updated Pulsar in 1987, they adopted the Australian made GM Family II engine, which was used in both Pulsar and Astra.
Subsequently, Nissan entered a model sharing agreement with Ford, and Holden entered a joint venture with Toyota.Fitzpatrickjm 13:47, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Holden Kingswood and DeVille

So much for the mention of the Holden Kingswood and DeVille (? Statesman) being rebadged in South Africa as the Chevrolet Kommando and the Constantia - As I recall these cars, they were adorned with distinctively different grilles and (?) tail lights. Would someone out there have any good photos of these? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.84.152.170 (talk • contribs) 10:10, 28 March 2005

These South African cars were the same as the contemporary Holdens- but they did have a different (Chevrolet) engine and a radiator grille which was flush, rather than recessed. The flush grille design was only used on one model in Australia- the Holden One Tonner cab-chassis. Fitzpatrickjm 13:47, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Why is the Vectra being replaced by a Daewoo?

Although it may be a bit expensive, it's a relatively good car. I just can't see Holden selling many models of a rebadged Daewoo. Daewoos aren't particularly known for good quality. If it's a bit expensive, then why not replace the Astra as well? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.192.158.42 (talk • contribs) 00:34, 1 January 2006

Three reasons: cost, cost, and cost. A lot of people don't really care about the Astra's superior handling or build quality, and would prefer a cheaper car with lots of equipment. As to why they're keeping the Astra, it gives them competitors in both the premium and budget small-medium car markets (which are quite different segments appealing to quite different customers). Longer term, however, Holden believes that GM Daewoo's next generation of products are going to be a lot better (they've sent Aussies over to Korea to help with the design). --Robert Merkel 05:06, 1 January 2006 (UTC)
Hmm...I see. Yeah, I hope Daewoo improves their quality. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.192.148.13 (talk • contribs) 03:57, 2 January 2006
It should be noted that Vectra sales have never reached expectations- the car is significantly more expensive in some levels than the larger Commodore. Hence, sales interest has been limited.
The current Astra is targeted at the premium small car segment, competing against Toyota Corolla, Ford Focus, VW Golf etc.
The similarly sized Viva competes in a lower price segment, against cars like the Hyundai Accent. Fitzpatrickjm 13:47, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't know if it's a new information for someone here, but as a german (& car-fan) I see the following problem: OPEL is a 'german' (or european) brand. And european car-buyers are much different to their counterparts especially in canada, the US or Australia. In europe you will buy a more expencive car like a Golf, Astra or Focus - the Opel Astra is in the Top 5 of the most selled cars in Germany. A Hyundai Accent not even in the Top 100 (!!). It's a bit ironic, that Opel models (like the astra) in germany don't have the image to be 'premium'. Astra, Focus and Co. are just middle-class for the middle-class of society. Don't get me wrong, but it just means that car-buyers in middle europe just have to spend more money than in other parts of the world. So a Vectra, Zafira or Astra is not suitable for markets out of europe. Greetz TomGaribaldi 15:45, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
Premium cars in the class of Astra, Focus & Co. are (in europe) cars like the BMW 1 Series, Mercedes Benz A- and B-Class or Audi A3 series. Models you won't find in most parts of the world [but a I see they are all available in australia ;-) ]. Greetz TomGaribaldi 11:01, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ford as rival, models, Rayner Hof

I feel the article somehow misses the Holden's place in Australia. It isn't that Australia isn't mentioned, but more that most Australians buy (used to buy) either a Ford or a Holden, that many can identify the 2 letter model number of those cars and refer to their EH, HQ, ... No mention of utes or panelvans or family sedans... barely any mention of Ford.

The history misses out from 1850 - 1931 when it was a local firm. The badge was designed in 1928 by Raynor Hof, who also designed the Sydney cenotaph. The 'Lion and Stone' symbol represents the legend of man's invention of the wheel.

As the rticle is obviously well developed, it seems appropriate to discuss changes here--A Y Arktos 20:37, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Need some help

I'm doing a List of Holden vehicles and since I'm neither an Aussie nor a Kiwi I could easily use the help of anyone familiar with Holden. -Daniel Blanchette 02:36, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Daniel, I hope you find the additional information I have added is helpful.Fitzpatrickjm 13:47, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Can anyone verify this?

In April 2005, the New Zealand Government accidentally banned the importation of Holdens after introducing its Anti-G.M. legislation. The legislation was changed shortly afterwards to remove the ambiguity.

It's in the NZ section, and I've flagged it for verification. I think it's a tongue in cheek comment, but I'm not 100% sure. Decromin 10:23, August 21, 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "The Ultimate Fate of Many..."

Is it really necessary to have the picture of the old rust bucket? I mean, come on. It seems a bit sad to me. Is this the work of some kind of embittered Ford owner? --Jquarry 02:37, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Agreed - it's not really in encyclopedic style. Should be replaced by a logo or something more representative of the subject matter. Decromin 10:31, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
I also agree. I think it should be removed and replaced with something else. I.E. a Holden Commodore - there’s plenty of images of them on Wikipedia. OSX 10:40, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
I've replaced the image with one from the Commodore article. Feel free to switch it if there's something better. Decromin 09:30, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The neutrality of this article is disputed.

By whom and for what reason? No point in tagging an article and then not backing that up with a reason. Decromin 11:09, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Meh, no replies, and no response from the person who posted the dispute tag. It's gone until someone can show good cause why it should return (and I don't know why wiki didn't save my edit summary) ... Decromin 15:55, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What's with this statement?

"In August 2006, Holden released the all new VE Commodore receiving increased power upgrades, performance, handling and appearance. But many people see the car as all talk. Holden state that there better than the highly respected automotive brand BMW, and that leave the competition in the Stone Age. This has given Holden an I’m better than everyone else, stuck up type image which isn't good for the company. People say that Holden is and big fish in a little country, and that they think there better then the rest of the world."

Surely this isn't really the kind of statement that belongs in the article, no? It seems to contain a lot of opinion, and no real substance. I'll leave it for a litte while, but I'll remove it unless there is a decent reason to leave it. Decromin 09:56, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

OK - I decided to remove it, and I've left a message with the author to discuss it here if he feels it should be included. Decromin 10:03, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV

Wow - this is riddled with POV. Some examples:

  • a unique combination of style, comfort, performance, economy and value for money that no competitor could match
  • FE was a very attractive car
  • Compared with the FE at the time of its introduction, the FB was a disappointment
  • its styling did not translate well to the more compact Holden
  • the Falcon had a far more modern appearance
  • the Holden appeared dated
  • could not disguise the outdated appearance of the car
  • This car had a much more modern contemporary appearance
  • they were good cars - significantly better in every way than their predecessor
  • This was Holden's most ambitious new model programme yet

There's tons more - the whole thing reads far more like a motoring magazine article than an encyclopedia article. I've made a start on cleaning up the punctuation, but there's plenty more to do here! 86.152.203.212 11:10, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

PS - I've just seen above that someone previously tagged this as POV but didn't back up their claims. Hope my comments above are a little more convincing! 86.152.203.212 11:11, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
I am the author of the material described above as being POV. I respectfully suggest that any serious historical research of the material regarding this subject would reveal that the information I have presented represents objective fact and/ or opinion which would be supported by the majority of experts. For the record, it does not comprise merely the personal opinion of the author.Fitzpatrickjm 13:47, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree that some of the statements do appear to be from a non-neutral point of view. Given the subject matter, as an encyclopedic (sp?) article surely this should only give facts. The Holden was faster or the Holden was smaller etc.. rather than the Holden looked nicer or sounded better? - Just my 2 pence. -- Rehnn83 Talk 12:47, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
Just because you think that the FB was a disappointment, does not necessarily reflect the views of all people. I understand that you are new to Wikipedia, and I respect that. But overtime, you will hopefully learn the rules. I have started copyediting the article, and I would appreciate it if you would take note of my changes and apply what you've learned to your future edits. For example, you may want to consider making your paragraphs more detailed/longer. Try including more links to other articles, and please check that they point to the correct article. Linking Holden Belmont to [[Belmont]] will not take you to the Holden Belmont article, but to the Belmont disambiguation page. Finally you must include inline citations, this is more important than all of the other points. It is a must: see Wikipedia:Citing sources. OSX (talk • contributions) 07:10, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Maintenance of correct facts when editing for style

I have noted that several changes have been made to the article, including changes to factual material I have presented. I respectfully suggest that anyone who is earnestly making changes to articles for style and presentation should endeavour to ensure that facts are not lost, or errors introduced when they make those changes.

It is somewhat discouraging for contributors to find that this happens. Rather than spend significant time correcting the corrections, I suggest that those persons who have performed the editing review the information before they make changes.

In the meantime, I note that the article as peresented contains factual errors. Fitzpatrickjm 00:52, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

I take it that you are pointing the finger at me. But the "factual" material that I have removed was merely original research, which is not allowed here on Wikipedia. Before I went over the article, it stated in one instance: FE was a very attractive car.... This may well have been what the motoring journalists quoted, but you have to say so and back it up with a source. For example Wheels magazine and a major newspaper may have quoted that, so you would say: When the FE was launched it was considered many to be a very attractive car by the motoring industry. [1][2]. If you were to include something like that in the article you have to cite that kind of information. I can assure that not everyone thinks the FE was an attractive car, even when it was released. I understand that you are new to editing, and we were all in that situation at first, but eventually you will understand what can and can't be included. OSX (talk • contributions) 08:18, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Holdenlogo.png

Image:Holdenlogo.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 04:19, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA on hold

I have reviewed this article according to the requirements of the GA criteria. I have put the article on hold until the following issues have been addressed:

  1. Add wikilinks in the intro paragraph for Australia and Australasia. Also direct duty in the last paragraph of the intro to Duty (economics).
  2. "HMBB made bodies to suit a number of chassis imported from different manufacturers, such as Buick, and Dodge." Remove the comma after Buick.
  3. Image:Millionth Holden.JPG needs a detailed fair use rationale for its inclusion on this page.
  4. "By the time Holden introduced the FB in 1960, many considered the appearance to be dated, as it was based on a three year old Chevrolet design." Change three year old to three-year-old. Same for "the two-year production run" three paragraphs down.
  5. "The name "Monaro" is an Aboriginal word meaning higher ground or higher plain." Add quotation marks around higher ground and higher plain. Same for "The name "Torana" is an Aboriginal word meaning to fly."
  6. "The four-cylinder Torana, later became the Holden Sunbird, which lived a six year lifespan..." Six-year.
  7. "Despite the introduction of the similar sized competitors, the HQ remained at the top of the sales charts." Add an inline citation for this.
  8. "The Australian Government intervened to endeavour to revive the industry, with the establishment of the Button car plan, named after John Button the Federal Industry Minister." Add a comma after Button.
  9. "An alliance was made with Nissan, saw Holden offer a rebadged Pulsar hatchback in 1985 as the Holden Astra." The sentence doesn't flow well, as the clause doesn't agree with the rest of the sentence; reword.
  10. "The change to the Nissan engine was necessitated by the legal requirement that all new cars sold in Australia from 1986 had to run on unleaded petrol." Add an inline citation.
  11. "But to increase profitability, Holden has now looked to the GM owned..." GM-owned.
  12. "GM and Holden confirmed V6 and V8 versions of the Commodore will be exported to the United States as the 2008 Pontiac G8 to replace the ageing Pontiac Grand Prix, in a deal to last the life cycle of the car." Single sentences shouldn't stand alone, so either incorporate this into another paragraph or expand on it.
  13. To meet the broad requirement, the article should have a section about its corporate structure, sales, and/or marketing. Some mention must be made for the company's business side, not just the cars it has developed throughout it's history. You can probably make mention of the slogan, the significance of the logo, Denny Mooney outside of the infobox, current revenue/net income, etc. Maybe you can use Image:Holden blimp.jpg for inclusion of marketing. All of this information could probably go into one section if you organize it well, unless you want to divide it up more.

Altogether, the article is very informative about the history of the company, and if you address the above issues and make mention of more of its business side, the article should have no problem being passed as a GA. The article has plenty of images and is stable, with no major POV problems. I'll leave the article on hold for up to seven days. If you have any questions or when you are done, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. --Nehrams2020 06:38, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] GA passed

I have passed this article according to the requirements of the GA criteria. Excellent work in addressing the above issues so quickly. Your addition of the new section exceeded what I thought would be there, so good job there. Continue to improve the article, ensuring that all new information is properly sourced. Consider getting a peer review to address any issues I may have missed and consider FAC when you think you are ready. To anyone that reads this review, please take some time and consider reviewing an article or two at GAC to help with the current backlog, as any help is appreciated. Keep up the good work, and I hope that you continue to improve the quality of articles on Wikipedia! --Nehrams2020 06:32, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Copyedit

This article, or a portion of it, was copyedited by the League of Copyeditors in August 2007. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.
  • Copyeditor(s): Finetooth 00:09, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
  • Proofreader: Cricketgirl 06:43, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Foundation date

I think in 1856 there were no cars.  A M M A R  14:11, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

True, but tif you actually read the "Early history" section you would have realise that Holden was originally a saddlery business until the twentieth century when it became involved in vehicle repairs, then later vehicle manufacturing. OSX (talk • contributions) 02:33, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Hartnett

There appears to be no discussion of Lawrence Hartnett and the Hartnett Car. Is this the appropriate page for this information?--Alexasmith (talk) 22:02, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Laurence Hartnett now receives a mention, but the Hartnett Car has nothing to do with Holden, although it is mentioned in the article Laurence Hartnett. OSX (talk • contributions) 07:12, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] I added some modifications to this entry

To all that are concerned, including the original auithor, considering the importance of this manufacturer, I really do think this entry needs significant work, and I hope these comments are taken easily.

I have one hour ago added some changes, (there are now a couple of my own typos, - two or three - but I couldn't get the wiki machine to correct these easily, soz about that, I am sure someone will sort these out if they are really concerned. If not I will presently.)

My additions were, at the end of the intro to provide a sentence attempting to recognise this marques unique place in Australian motoring and engineering history, and also to recognise Holdens involvement with motorsport, also bringing Ford into the same sentence (As a GMH fan, I do not belive I have displayed any real bias here).

I have added a mention of what happened to the HQ, after 1975 - (HX< HZ etc - I realise this is repeated later in the entry, but dont think it is too bad, I think typos corrected it still reads OK. (although damn, I neglected to mention that the WB was also released as a van).

I added the mention of motorsport again with Torana and its sucess against Fords GTHO at Bathurst. Links should, in my opinion be created to Bathurst, (both as a town and as a motor race) to Ford Australia and to the XY-XW GTHO Falcon, as the entries are bound to exist either now, or eventually.

I also added a reference to the word Torana being sourced from Indigenous Australian dialect with the meaning 'to fly'.

However - I think generally, the entire article, whilst it has obviously had much work put into it is still a work in progress. More pics, and much more work on the Australian development of the Commodore should be starters in my opinion.

Hope nobody is offended. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Reasonatwiki (talk • contribs) 19:46, 7 June 2008 (UTC)