Template talk:History of Ukraine

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Nice job. What about adding some Ukrainian colors/symbols to make the template more 'live'? Some blues and yellows would be nice, I think. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 19:31, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

Looks good. We should think about how this will overlap with the usage of Template:History of Russia and Template:History_of_Russia_Ukraine_Belarus, as well as history articles relating to Belarus, Poland, and possibly Lithuania.
Good point. It would be nice to design a common format, so when 2 or more templates are used, they would flow fairly seemlessly into one another. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 17:31, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
The template also demonstrates some of the gaps in our history articles. Ukrainian SSR could use a history section, and an article about Ukraine during the Russian Revolution would be nice too. —Michael Z. 2005-10-29 23:14 Z

I would more tha welcome anyone messing with this template, provided these are not known troublemakers. You know who I mean and definetely not any of those who already commented :) . -Irpen 19:55, 30 October 2005 (UTC)

Please keep only historic periods in the template. RU 17 revolution is a historic period, the Orange Revolution is an event. Ukr SSR is a historic period, Holodomor is an event within it. Pls no trolling. --Irpen 00:40, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes, no trolling, Irpen. Please. The Russian revolutions of 1917 and 1905 are not "historic periods". Unless you go and change the History of Russia template, don't come and change this template.--Andrew Alexander 04:36, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
A lot happened in 1917–1922, but this period in Ukraine is rather underrepresented in mainstream history and in Wikipedia. I would love to read an article on this period, and I would contribute any way I could. I don't think 'trolling' is a fair accusation. —Michael Z. 2006-02-26 14:32 Z

Contents

[edit] Foreign occupation nonsense

How could a piece of land that is integrally part of a another country be occupied? Its like saying that just because my Kuban is part of Russia it is occupied by it... I hope nobody minds me purging this nonsense.--Kuban Cossack 12:30, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

May I propose Foreign rule? This period of history is typically depicted by Ukrainian historians as a time when most of present-day Ukraine was split and controlled by foreign powers. During this period, the concept of Ukrainian nationalism was brought to the fore, which was challenged by harsh restrictions on self-expression (see Taras Shevchenko, Ems Ukaz, etc...), so I certainly do not think that "occupation" was way over the line, but if it has inherent POV, then since the corresponding section in HoU is titled Russian and Austrian Rule, I will insert Foreign rule for now.--tufkaa 17:49, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. "Foreign rule" usually means the colonial-type administration. Territories of Ukraine were fully integrated within the Russian Empire and the Governorates in the Ukrainian territory was not economically exploited in any more extent than other Governorates of Russia. --Irpen 17:58, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

I don't deny that there was integration, but from the perspective of the HoU, this was a period lacking in self-autonomy. The preceding period of Cossack rule range from full to partial autonomy, however that was abolished along with the Sich. If this wasn't foreign rule, then from where do the concepts of nationalism emerge?--tufkaa 18:05, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

From the perspective of the HofUA, USSR was also lack of self-determination. Still, this was not the "foreign rule" either. Ukraine was part of the larger country, this is true. That larger country opposed local separatism, this is also true. But the concept of the Ukrainian nationalism emerged only in mid- to end-19th century, together with other nationalist concepts in Europe. There was no colonial-type administration of Ukraine under the control of the Russian Empire and the term "Foreign rule" implicitly implies such. --Irpen 18:12, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I'm just trying to find an agreeable title. However, according to WP:

Colonialism is the extension of a nation's sovereignty over territory beyond its borders by the establishment of either settler colonies or administrative dependencies in which indigenous populations are directly ruled or displaced. Colonizing nations generally control and exploit the resources, labor, and markets of the colonial territory. Some colonizing powers imposed their socio-cultural and religious practices and their language on the conquered population and suppressed the local religions or languages (see also cultural imperialism).

Both the Tsardom of Russia an the Empire extended their borders and directly ruled the populations indigenous to the newly acquired area. So by that definition, I have to point out that using such language as Foreign rule, especially in the context of HofUA, is, again, not over the line. Other templates with similar histories point to a "Union", although I can't really see a practical parallel in Ukraine's case. Perhaps Partitions (of Ukraine? of Ruthenia?)?--tufkaa 18:58, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

First of all, the usage of Ukraine for pre-19th century time is somewhat anachronistic. Ruthenia? Perhaps, not sure. Little Russia is usable as well. Secondly, Ukraine was indeed integrated fully both within the Russian Empire and the USSR. Its representatives took the highest posts in the countries, population was not discriminated (except when separatist threats where suspected) and its territory was not economically exploited, not deprived of investment, development, etc. Thus, Ukraine was simply part of the larger country rather than ruled by another country, the term more applicable to the colonial type rule. Russia was not a colonial power in the classical sense and the administration of Ukraine was similar to that of any other part of the country, unlike, say, administration of India compared to the administration of England itself. So, "foreign rule" is misleading for sure. --Irpen 19:08, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
Well why not just label the part of history from the so-called "Ukrainian" perspective as Russian Empire, and Austro-Hungary. And in the Russian Empire the Ukrainians Little Russians were not seen as foreigners, and neither did they view others as such.--Kuban Cossack 19:35, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Color

Folks, the word "show" is nearly invisible in the template now; you may want to change its color. Beit Or 17:48, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Template placement

Please stop slapping this template on every article listed by it. Some articles it may be useful to link to, but may not be focussing on the Ukraine specifically enough to warrant transclusion of the template on the article (e.g. Scythia). --dab (𒁳) 15:31, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Unofficial Greater Coat of Arms of Ukraine.svg

It's not correct to use the Greater Coat of Arms of Ukraine.svg because it's project only. In article Coat_of_arms_of_Ukraine you can read The Great Coat of Arms of Ukraine was never officially adopted, but it was published in various heraldic sources. So, it will be more correctly use Lesser_Coat_of_Arms_of_Ukraine.svg. --Movses (talk) 14:01, 27 May 2008 (UTC)