Talk:History of slavery

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You smell like an ass and the slave trade was very sad I hoope the people involved were very severley punished for their mistakes.

This information was once part of the "slavery" article. However, when the article was cleaned up and reduced in size, most of the material in this section was dumped without being distributed into other articles. There's some very good material here, including information I was looking for earlier today and not finding. I resurrected this article from version "22:23, 11 July 2006; 67.188.173.95", the last revision of this material before it was dumped. I have also changed several redirects from "slavery" to "history of slavery". Peter G Werner 03:41, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Dumping material should be punishable by some heavy wiki-beating-on-the-head of parties responsible. Consider DYKing this article, it should achieve much more attention if this succeeds.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk  11:48, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

There needs to be a lot more about slavery and islam, i recommend Islam's black slavery by Ronald Segal. There is a longer history and roughly the same numbers transported, ie. 12-14 million. It seems ridicolous not to mention this, maybe slightly political correct(?)

Contents

[edit] slave traders

Maybe this article need a headline about this. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 212.97.173.119 (talk) 11:18, 8 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Citations Please

Reference

  • Section: Tudor, Stuart and Hanoverian England
The trade in serfs in England was made illegal in 1102,[1]

This quote needs a citation. The text below it contains the sort of citation needed above. Malangthon 01:42, 14 January 2007 (UTC)


[edit] POV

Reference

  • Section: Slavery in Arabia, the Ottoman Empire and the Middle East
”The Arab world has traded in slaves like many other cultures of the region.”

I note that the phrasing here places the practice of slavery in a wider and therefore more common cultural context thus serving to distribute this phenomenon amongst other cultures and thereby mitigate the practice--i.e. others did it too. This approach is lacking in the sections above on western societies and thereby raises the distinct possibility of a POV Malangthon 01:42, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] history of the slave trade

Bold textapprentices in the year 1834 and the purpose of the stipendiary magisties.209.94.206.53 23:48, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Mass Exodus and Archeology

This article says that modern archeology throws doubts on Moses's Exodus, but there's no link to evidence or any source of that statement, so I'm removing it. Not that Moses's Exodus is undebatable-I believe wholeheartedely that it occurred-but that it is stated to be true in an ancient text, and this article has no reason to question that text's reliability. At least, not without evidence. Avatar Sokka —Preceding unsigned comment added by Avatar Sokka (talk • contribs) 18:54, January 23, 2007

I have no idea whether the removed statement is true or not, but Avatar Sokka is correct: it should not be in the article without a citation to a reliable published source. -- Satori Son 19:03, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

The Ancient Egypt section still needs POV work. It argues that Ancient Egyptian slavery was different from other forms of slavery, then lists the ways in which it is different- except all of these ways are seen in other types of slavery, particularly slavery in Egypt into the 20th century. There are many court cases of slaves suing their masters for unjust treatment, people volunteering for slavery to escape poverty, etc. For the time being I'll try to make it more neutral. Also I moved it to ancient mediterranean.--Zachbe (talk) 21:02, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] section name change: Slavery in North America -> Slavery in the United States

I think the name of this section should be changed as it deals almost completely with the history of slavery in the United States, not North America. Very little (or nothing) is mentioned about slavery in Mexico, Canada, the Carribean, or Central American countries. If someone adds a significant amount of material on those subjects, it should be changed back. Or maybe a different section should be made for slavery in each of those areas separately. Prometheusg 16:48, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pejorative Language

It seems a pity that people spoil this otherwise good article by the use of pejorative words such as "exploitation".

Wikipedia is meant to have a neutral point of view.--Toddy1 20:40, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

'Exploitation' is correct and consistent with the view of slavery articulated in most reliable sources. Tom Harrison Talk 20:43, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Then quote the source as footnote to the use of this pejorative word.--Toddy1 20:37, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

I find this objection silly, at best. Check the definition of slavery, for goodness sake. It's utterly uncontroversial. Cgingold 02:22, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

You seem to be mainly interested in presenting a negative view of slavery. This is in breach of the neutral point of view policy.--Toddy1 19:14, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Neutrality is not defined by triangulation among a random collection of Wikipedia editors. It is defined by what reliable sources say. Those sources overwhelmingly present slavery as a bad thing. No doubt there is a tiny minority who think (or pretend) that slavery is a morally neutral way to manage human resources rather than a crime against humanity, but presenting that point of view would give undue weight to a fringe opinion. Tom Harrison Talk 19:38, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Slavery is an institution which has existed for about 5000 years of human history. So there must have been a lot of people over the course of that time who thought it was OK. So why did they think so? Or is their point of view so dangerous to you that you cannot bear that it be shown?--Toddy1 21:23, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

What is it you want to put in the article, and what are the citations? Tom Harrison Talk 22:09, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removed material in need of re-write

I removed this section because it does not match the style of the article, includes unencyclopedic POV material, it hasn't been integrated into the existing sections and needs rewriting to make its points. I also notice that the web page reference given (www2.h-net.msu.edu/~africa) doesn't contain any relevant content.

"The European society turned Africa into a slave trade. Many Africans were forced into slavery amd this process became a drastic blow to the African continent as a whole. The history of this slavery still haunts Africans today and was even integrated into United States culture at its development. Alkalimat, Abdul. The African American Experience in Cyberspace. London: Pluto P, 2004. 34. Nearly all of the European societies played a role in slavery and all of Africa felt the impact. Even, the Europeans who came to America played a role in the slave trade of African Americans. It is estimated that about 100 million Africans were forced into slavery. The lives and destruction of these people played a vital role in the development of the United States and slavery was not supressed until the integration of the Industrial Revolution. During this time, machines were starting to be used instead of people. H-Net: Humanities and Social Sciences Online. Michigan State University. <www2.h-net.msu.edu/~africa>.
Many people have tried arguing that the slave tried was necessary in preventing Africans from the barbarism of their past and that in fact introduced them to a new way of life. Alkalimat, Abdul. The African American Experience in Cyberspace. London: Pluto P, 2004. 34. The only reason this viewpoint can be refuted is because of the fact that lineage of the African slaves can still tell their story. In our American society, it still remains evident that made a very dramatic impact on most countries in the Americas. Alkalimat, Abdul. The African American Experience in Cyberspace. London: Pluto P, 2004. 35. The slavery in Europe during the slave trade and the slavery that was brought into American are very different but both put Europeans and their descendants to shame. Slaveowners should be ashamed for holding people hostage in this way. Degrading a group of people by using them to your own advantage is dispicable and should be looked down upon most definitely.
By looking at different cultures around the Americas, it is obvious that the slave trade brought as many African ideas to the American culture as did European culture. This just proves that the lives of Africans are as precious as the lives of any other culture or race in the world."

Rexparry sydney 02:03, 4 May 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Possible Provisions: Sex Slavery

Hello all, though I think the piece is great, why wasn't the modern day sex slave trade included within this article? Though such an addition would be lenghty one, I think it should be part of the article. There is sex slavery in Eastern Europe and Southern Asian countries.

African OriginsAfrican Origins 07:47, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree, also from Africa. Beware of the sex slave trade originated in Nigeria which ends up in Spain and Portugal (possibly other countries). Women are lent money to emigrate to Europe by mafia rings. They have to pay the money back, often by means of prostitution (it's a lot of money). If they do not pay, their relatives back in Nigeria are murdered. I saw a Spanish TV report about this issue. Joao Lisbon, Portugal —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.214.58.109 (talk) 00:51, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] No Moors ever sailed to England and Scandinavia taking whole villages, and more falsehoods

No Moors ever sailed to England and Scandinavia taking whole villages for slaves as the article says. I took that out. I left in the thing about mediteranian raids in the 8th century b/c I don't know about that and its possible I suppose? Perhaps Spain? But sources would be nice. However, the above claim of the Moors sailing to Scandinavia and England and taking whole villages of slaves is simply false, and quite ridiculous really. Thanks!

This whole article has major false, or unprovable and uncited claims. For intance, it said that 1.5 million "europeans" were taken as slaves by North Africans. Where is this giantly inflated number coming from, and how could anyone know exactly how many slaves were taken? If that is true (its not) it would mean roughly as many, or more europeans were taken as slaves by north africans, then africans were taken as slaves by North Americans. That is clearly not possible, or it would be so widely known and documented that there would be whole history departments devoted to it, etc. Another ridiculous allegation.

Actually Barbary Corsairs did raid southern England for slaves, strange it may seem today but see http://www.cindyvallar.com/barbarycorsairs.html a real problem 200 years ago.Jonathan Cardy 12:36, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

That site itself, although not academic, is a good overview, and provides a useful reference list. BrainyBabe 17:55, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] North America Section

The North America section contradicts itself a little. At first it says that slavery isn't a legally defined status until 1661, then it says the 1640s. Then the whole 17th century is briefly resummarized again. It seems like this should all be integrated better, maybe with more quotes from laws that illustrate the incremental or drastic changes in status that occurred?

[edit] John Casor and Anthony Johnson

Any description of the history of Slavery in North America, particularly in the United States, should mention John Casor & Anthony Johnson (American Colonial). I would also agree with the above unsigned comments. This portion of the article should be cleaned up. Chronology would probably make much better sense.Asacan 14:22, 26 August 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Slavery in Arabia, the Ottoman Empire and the Middle East

delted weasle words and direct POV which is trying to white wash the transatlantic slave trade by demonizing Arabs and redirecting focus. Just state the facts, we dont need any POV comparisions, site multi sources. I will tag this section because it is not neutral. The fact that it is called Arab slave trade over and over again is a bias. when even indians and chinese were involved. there is also virtually no ref for the BIG statements.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 22:50, 24 June 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Balance

see [Braudel, Colonialism and the Rise of the West] I dont know considering the nature of this man you can open up an article on African Slavery and start with a agent like Braudel, for heaven sake, why not start a page on Jewish Holocaust and start with the views of Henrich Himmler? sorry dont we have African who are better at their own history to start with? --Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ 23:10, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] senegambia

I have read the article from britanica and have some issues. First of all the existence and definition of the nature of slavery in Africa is controversial and is highly disputed. Many argue that slavery in Africa cannot be compared to the that in the Americas, because it was short lived and "slaves" would eventually intermarry into the occupying population. The paper gives the impression that these are hard numbers, when however the population of the regions in mentioned are not even accurately known. There were no censuses in Africa in the 17th and 18th century. Muntuwandi 13:03, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Bring in the other sources and we can include the contrary opinion. If it gets too long or detailed, it should be spun off and summarized here. Tom Harrison Talk 13:07, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Picture text

"Trafficked children as young as 2 years old are forced to work up to 18 hours a day as camel jockeys in the Middle East"

The implication of this exxagerated text is that 2-3 year olds are working as camel jockeys. Anyone that has ever to the middle east or ridden a camel knows that this just isn't physically possible.

Source it or reword it. Zarkow 124.120.74.40 17:17, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] no more slaves

just no more stop it now ok good bye ty :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.169.200.77 (talk) 02:00, August 28, 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Slavery template box

The current location of the {{slavery}} template obscures the contents box when displayed. It could alternatively be relocated to the start of the next section, or it could be added to the "See also" as it is essentially a list of related pages and topics.

I have relocated it to the "See also" section, but this is a reasonably arbitrary decision and I would welcome discussion regarding any alternative placings for it. Euryalus 22:13, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Consensus re the following sentences

I recently removed two sentences from the article for the reasons outlined below. I am interested in other's views regarding their inclusion or otherwise:

  • Ironically, the creation and maintenance of Nazi death squads ( Einsatzgruppen) and extermination camps has sensationally and lastingly diverted much serious attention away from the Nazi 'league position' as regards the scale and conditions of slavery that were endemic to their cultural dispensation.
The meaning of the above seemed unclear. "League positions" are not defined, nor is it clear what "endemic to their cultural dispensation" means. Clearer wording and an explanation of relevance to this topic would be appreciated.
  • To serious scholars, it is remarkable that the Gulag Archipelago has so little resonance within the wider history of slavery. It may well that in many nations a sentimental regard for the 'ideals' of communism will always repress true dialogue on this issue.
This is unsourced ("serious scholars" is not sufficient) and would appear to be a general comment on public or political attitudes rather than a history of slavery. The existence of Gulags and the horrific death toll are adequately covered in the article, suggesting that even if the above sentence is correct elsewhere it is not correct here.

As always, comments and opposing views welcomed. Euryalus 23:05, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Edit

I changed the title "Return of slavery to British law" to "Slavery in American Colonial Law". The statutes were enacted by the American colonial legislatures not by the British legislature. Further, they had no influence on the law in Britain (For example, "How did American Slavery Begin," Edward Countryman, et al, Bedford St. Martins, 1999). Slavery was never legal in Britain, as finally ruled in the Mansfield decision (aka the Somersett Case).

I also changed: "In 1772, a legal case concerning James Somersett made it illegal to remove a slave from England against his will" to "In 1772, the Somersett Case (R. v. Knowles, ex parte Somersett)[2] of the English Court of King's Bench in 1772 ruled that slavery was unlawful in England (although not elsewhere in the British Empire)" The latter quote was taken directly from the Wikipedia article on the Somersett case. The former interpretation is much too narrow and very much a minority view: the court's decision clearly and finally settled the issue of whether or not slavery was legal in England.

--Kjb (talk) 19:52, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cyrus the Great Cylinder

The Wikipedia page on the Cyrus the Great Cylinder contains a link to a translation of the cylinder which has every appearance of being accurate. The translation currently included in the History of Slavery page does not agree with that translation and portrays Cyrus as a more progressive ruler than he apparently was. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.77.119.58 (talk) 06:09, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Use of sources

Why is the referencing of this article so dominated by a motley collection of weblinks and works unrelated to slavery like that of Beevor and Rummel? There are plenty of very authorative books written on the history of slavery. For example, the amount of citations in the section on Africa could probably be cut in half if the works of historians like Paul Lovejoy and John K. Thornton were used instead.

Peter Isotalo 11:34, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Problematic removal of Norway and entire section about Portugal and GB

I have changed the name of one of the Scandinavian kingdoms back to the historically correct name used in all the sources cited for this section: Denmark-Norway. The removal of Norway in order to prevent "blame" from being cast on the country (as per this edit) is not very constructive. Please note that Norwegians profited from the trade and were directly involved, although the country was administratively dominated by Denmark during this period. As a personal observation, I'd like to add: The strength and beauty of Norway's approach as an independent country is the courage usually exhibited in taking responsibility and encouraging other countries to do so. As opposed to the criticism against other country's attempts to claim the world stage as "the conscience of the world", there is usually never anything to say against government representatives from Norway for trying to take on that role, because the country can seldom be blamed for trying to hide uncomfortable facts or "not cleaning their own house first" when they encourage other nations to respect human rights. The reason is that, even when their involvement is peripheral, they step up to the plate and expose parts of history that is unflattering, because, as the Norwegian UNESCO Commission writes, "it is only through remembering history that we can avoid repeating it." It's a bit discouraging to note that this effort appears to be side-stepped here. Please note that the Norway, as one of few countries with this kind of small-scale involvement in the slave trade and in the enslavement of Africans, has made it a point to be perfectly honest about their involvement. UNESCO Norway has a web page that shows for example aslave captain's house in Norway. The site where the Danish-Norwegian slave ship Fredensborg sank is a national heritage site. In addition, Norway has made it a point to make sure the Fredensborg exhibition is made available to the people of the Caribbean, as well as to the people of Ghana. SJUPadin (talk) 19:35, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

In addition: I note that the sub-sections about Portugal and about Great Britain and Ireland have now been totally stripped of text. Please be informed that I intend to restore these sections, and kindly discuss before performing such wholesale deletions of text. This article is not a WP:LIST and needs at least summary sections under each sub-head. SJUPadin (talk) 17:54, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] History of Slavery / Medieval Europe

The following section is false information about Hungary:

. . . for more than half a century Magyar bands raided Germany, Great Moravia, Italy, the Byzantine Empire, and lands as far away as Spain. The Magyars looted towns and took captives for labor, ransom, or sale on the slave market.[22]

22. The Magyars of Hungary.

The reason the Magyars raided Germany and other European countries in the 10th century was not for booty or slavery but, in all the Magyar campaigns, the Magyars were invited by the German princes and close relatives to help them prevent Otto I from centralizing his power, thereby providing a balance of power. Another reason was to reclaim their treasures that Charlemagne had taken from the Avars (relatives of the Magyars) The Magyars never took slaves. There were probably prisoners of war but there was no slave-trade. Source: www.magtudin.org. Botos, Laszlo: The Homeland Reclaimed, Chapter II. The Campaigns of the Magyars Tiszataj (talk) 19:22, 28 March 2008 (UTC)