Talk:History of economic thought

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 History of economic thought was a Social sciences and society good article nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions on the review page for improving the article. Once these are addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Reviewed version: June 10, 2008

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I've started this page in its own right, and as people can see at the moment, slowly working through the ages - only up to Adam Smith so far. I've also realised it might already be getting a bit long (and it doesn't even have all the authors it could, or go into adequate detail) so perhaps down the road it could be separated according to period. However, everyone can see I've already laid out a basic structure, so if anybody wants to jump ahead and edit that stuff, please do! Wikidea 08:30, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Why is this a separate page from History of economics?

I don't see any reason to distinguish the two, given that the existing page is already about economic thought, and given that there was already an existing consensus that that was the proper place for it. THF 13:29, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I just wanted to say "thank you" for this page about the history of economics. It's really clear in its layout and I've learned a lot by reading it. Cheers!Fuzzy180 01:29, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Agree with merge of History of economics into History of economic thought JQ 12:03, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
Agree with merge, History of economics into this page. --lk (talk) 19:57, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Remarks

Some remarks per Wikidea's kind request for a very interesting article:

  • First, the problem mentioned above: we have two articles overlapping. Merge them! Y Done
  • The lead
  • The lead is nice but I have some doubts (maybe about my different approach of the lead, which also was clear during our dialogues about the Law article):
  • A large part of the first par. is about Adam Smith. I think this may be too much. And he is mentioned again in the second par. Y Done
  • "the prevailing consensus broke down". What consensus? Was there ever a consensus?
I had in mind the post war Keynsian consensus; like Nixon saying "we're all Keynsians now" - made it clearer. Wikidea 00:06, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
  • "Men like Milton Friedman and Friedrich von Hayek caught the imagination of western leaders, warning of The Road to Serfdom and socialism." They didn't just do that. You should make clear in the lead what they represented, and IMO the magic word is Monetarism. Y Done
  • "Yet the twenty first century begins and the history of economic thought continues in an increasingly globalised economy." Far too vague even for a lead. And, since you speak about globalization, then you should also I think make a quick mention to some critical approaches, like the one of Joseph E. Stiglitz. In one sentence. At least, IMO he is more important in economics than Fukuyama! Y Done
  • "Economic thought has evolved through feudalism in the Middle Ages, through mercantilist theory in the renaissance". Again a very brief mentioning in the lead of the Early Economic Thought wouldn't hurt. Y Done
  • Early Economic Thought
  • Where from is Aristotle's excerpt? Politics, probably ... You should make clear that in the citations as well ... And include the book in the References, where I do not see it. Y Done
  • Mercantilism
  • Try to cite all your assertions. Even in sections like the one about "Mun", where there is a main article, you should again have citations.
  • The section about "Philipp von Hörnigk" is as long as the main article about him! Where is WP:SS? In general, you follow a structure putting one theorist after the other, and presenting their ideas. Personally, I would create more concise sections, e.g. Mercantilism in an article written by me would have no sub-sections, and I would include all the theorists of the era in one concise section. But again, this may be a different approach ... One result of your approach is that the article tends to become too long. Think about it ...
  • The quote in Hörnigk is uncited (and possibly too long per my above remark).
  • More for Hörnigk than for Colbert? Hmmmm ....
  • British enlightenment
  • See also "Thomas Hobbes", but nothing about Hobbes in the text! And he spoke about property before Locke. Again, my comments about the section's structure stand.
  • Maybe The Wealth of Nations could also be a bit more concise, keeping what it serves the needs of the broader topic of the article. Per WP:SS the reader can go to The Wealth of Nations article for further details.
  • "Limitations" is a section full of quotes. I do not like in a section most of it to be quotes. I prefer narration that flows well. But again you can also listen to other opinions.
  • Classical Economy
  • In Bentham:"The aim of legal policy must be to decrease misery and suffering so far as possible while producing the greatest happiness for the greatest number..." It is not clear for me in the analysis of all this paragraph the connection of Bentham's legal theory about misery-happiness, and prisons' reform with economy. The section should be clearer, and more to the point.
  • Malthus: What does he propose to tackle population growth? The main article is clearer here: "Malthus favored moral restraint (including late marriage and sexual abstinence) as a check on population growth. However, it is worth noting that Malthus proposed this only for the working and poor classes. Thus, the lower social classes took a great deal of responsibility for societal ills, according to his theory. In his work An Essay on the Principle of Population, he proposed the gradual abolition of poor laws."
  • "David Ricardo"'s section is one of the best of the article. It flows well, and presents in an excellent way his theory. But again no citations!
  • "Mill was a child prodigy, reading Ancient Greek from the age of 3, and being vigorously schooled by his father James Mill. " Do we need in the article biographical remarks like this one? Maybe this is one of the results of the "structure problem" I analyzed above, by presenting one theorist after the other, by arranging biographies in rows.
  • Marx
  • "Capitalism" as the section's heading? Maybe social economy?
I thought Capitalism is a good title because that was the focus for the Marxian critique (and he made the word up!) Wikidea 00:05, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Again in the sections about Marx I think you overexpand. "Context" belongs IMO to an article about Marx's philosophy, and here could just be a short paragraph of the next section.
  • To the contrary, "After Marx" could have some more analysis. And even something about "Before Marx"! I think there were businessmen and societies in England who tried to implement "socialist" ideas, but without success. For instance, you say nothing about Robert Owen. Y Done
The stuff about Owen is already in the context section for instance; point taken about the overall length. Wikidea 00:05, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
  • Keynes
  • "He helped formulate the plans for the International Monetary Fund at the Bretton Woods conference." And for the International Trade Organization as well. Y Done

And again you have so much more to write, and I cannot imagine how long is this article going to get! Think about the structure ... And think also about the structure of you references: many sub-categories. I am not sure they are necessary. Y Done --Yannismarou 12:17, 11 September 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Good article status?

How about putting this article up for review for Good Article status? As a complete aside, shouldn't Robert Solow and 'Growth Theory' be in the article? --lk (talk) 20:54, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

I just came to the article for the first time and had the same though. I'm going to nominate it. Cordless Larry (talk) 13:31, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
I was always still getting around to finishing this, because as you can see, some sections are still stubs, at the bottom. I just haven't had the energy. Come June I will! But glad to watch how the GA nomination goes. Wikidea 15:13, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:The General Theory.gif

Image:The General Theory.gif is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 20:46, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The Arabic thinkers

Unfortunately Jaggard85 seems to think that some people that nobody has ever heard of warrant an extra three paragraphs and a reworking of the introduction. This is supported by references (which I also deleted) from minor articles from unknown economists supporting the view. It isn't noteworthy.

I suggest that the links to these people in the see also titles across the tops of the sections are sufficient. The content which was there on Chanakya and Ibn Khaldun were flimsy, and really said very little about what they said or thought that has anything to do with economics - some waffle about which King they served and so on.

I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a compromise - perhaps the Duns Scotus paragraph could be expanded slightly and changed to include 'other mediaeval thought' to include this lot. But you, Jaggard85 have to make the case. It's not enough to say 'this guy came up with the labour theory of value' when of course it was material rediscovered AFTER a few centuries of people from Locke onwards talking about it. So far as the introduction goes, it's truly ridiculous to say "a competitor as the father of modern economics" is soandso. Give me one single introductory course on an Economic history programme which gives the weight you're trying to to these people and I might change my mind. Otherwise, I would settle with the links. Wikidea 18:15, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

If Duns Scotus deserves a mention, then Ibn Khaldun certainly does. Ibn Khaldun touched on ideas that presaged modern growth theory, the labor theory of value, the functions of money, and the Laffer Curve. lk (talk) 19:42, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Karl Marx

I reccomend that the section currently entitled Capitalism should be renamed Karl Marx. The content of that section centers on his economic thought, so entitleing it Capitalism is only confusing. Worse, it may be come off as an expression of neo-classical POV. If there is no objections, I will make the change my self. Comte de Maistre (talk) 23:13, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

If you read the section, I think (or at least it should be in there!) that you'll find Karl Marx invented the word Capitalism. It's a good name for the section, because the term only came about through its most avid critics - and it's not just about Marx, but about Engels, Luxembourg, and other socialists. Wikidea 17:56, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
In response to your first point: I certainly understand your reasoning; but I still think it's confusing to discuss Karl Marx and other socialist thinkers under a section entitled "Capitallism". The main object of these men's work was creating a critique of the capitalist system and formulating an alternative vision of how society should work. Placing them under "Capitalism" would be like placing Adam Smith and the physiocrats under a section entitled "Mercantilism".
In response to your second point: I recognize that it does not speak only about Karl Marx, but the others are mentioned primerily in their relation to Marx himself, either as predicessors or as successors to his body of work (Engels being the exception). Further, it should be noted that Karl Marx is the central figure of the section's opening paragraph, and two of the subsections that follow are entitled "Das Kapital" and "After Marx".
If you do not like the name "Karl Marx" as a section heading, would "Challenging Classical Orthodoxy" be a more acceptable option ?
      With Respect,
      Comte de Maistre (talk) 00:49, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, I mean some other name could do a better job - challenging classical orthodoxy just strikes as a touch cumbersome though. Any other suggestions? On the other hand, "capitalism" is a really misunderstood word, because we don't live in a capitalist world and haven't for a long time. It means private ownership of the means of production. We have a big public sector, on average 40% across developed nations, and even in the "private" sector, the largest stakes of investment capital derive from people's pensions. The company/corporation (depending on where you're from) is a method of socialising wealth, albeit that the methods of distribution of power through company law may favour certain groups over others, favouring managers over shareholders, for instance. In other words the latter half of the Nineteenth century was the high watermark of capitalism, when this was not the case. A large public sector only developed around the turn of the century. Company law wasn't in existence until 1865 in Britain, the first country to introduce limited liability and separate legal personality in a modern company act. So maybe the analogy to calling the Adam Smith section Mercantilism isn't too strong, because that had been around for 200 years before, and he spoke for the generation that was burying it. I know what you mean about confusing people, but of course the purpose of an encyclopedia is to inform people about things they mightn't have known before.
Are you an economist? Can you finish off the later sections for me on the modern economists? I have much less time outside of term break to do a proper job! Wikidea 23:58, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Just on a note of interest, here's an interesting myth buster about "Marxism": a list of demands that the Communist Manifesto made in 1848:
  1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.
  2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.
  3. Abolition of all right of inheritance.
  4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.
  5. Centralization of credit in the hands of the State, by means of a national bank with State capital and an exclusive monopoly.
  6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the State.
  7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the State; the bringing into cultivation of waste-lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.
  8. Equal liability of all to labour. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.
  9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of the distinction between town and country, by a more equable distribution of the population over the country.
  10. Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labour in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production.
Now how many of those demands have been achieved, wholly or partially? I'd say (with a bit of leeway, depending on your country) 2, 5 and 10 wholly; 1, 3, 6, 7 and 8 partially (think of social housing and local council planning for the land ones) and only 4 and 9 that have not, for obviously good reasons. Marx's critique of capitalism was tremendously effective and influential. Even the cold warrior style politician that denounces "communism" as if there were no tomorrow would unwittingly agree to much of this. Oh the irony! Wikidea 00:10, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

On the question of the titles: Here are some suggestions I thought of: "19th century Socialism", "Rise of Communism","Socialism", "Marxian Economic". Personally, I would prefer to make the current section wholly about 19th century-early 20th century Marxism, and create seprate sections focusing on other radical economic movement in the 19th century (Anarchism, Utopian Socialism, etc.

On your questions about editing this article: Sadly, I do not have a degree in economics, nor am I currently studying in a college economics course. The kindest desription of my expertise in the field would be "informed layman". So I am not the to write about current debates and thinkers. However, I think I could write section about the Neo-Ricardians (who I did'nt see mentioned at all in this article), The Cambrage Capital Controversy, and a more detailed exposition of Praeto's economics.

On Capitalism: I agree somewhat with your declaration that we no longer live in a capitalist system. You are quite right in pointing out how the industrialized/post industrial economy has developed what could be called socialist features since the late 19th century. However, I think that declaring capitalism dead would be quite premature. Some of the economic roles performed by states, such as the national bank, would better be described as protections of the capitalist economy, rather than as forces which have supplemented the privite economy (see State Capitalism). Moreover, I belive historically that modren capitalism and the modren state have enjoyed since the beginning close relationships of mutual dependence(See Braudel's Civilization and Capitalism, 15th-18th centuries]]. I am puzzled why you would think coporations (particuly large, publically traded coporations) are not capitalist enteprises. The fact that the lion's share of profits and power withen most such entities is concentrated in the hands of managers and stock owners, not the workers themselves makes them fit Marx understanding of capitalism perfectly. Finially, are you suggesting that cooperations were created after what you identify as the "highpoint of capitalistm" ? I was under the impression that joint stock companies had existed since at least the High-Middle Ages.

Don't interpret this as a challenge; the differences between my POV and yours need not lead to conflict on the content of this article, which has maintained a tone of neutrality throughout.

P.S I am not French, despite my username. Comte de Maistre (talk) 02:18, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:The Essential Galbraith.jpg

Image:The Essential Galbraith.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 04:54, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Western world POV

The article lacks the needed global perspective. There's no mention of any islamic thoughts of economy, nothing about Assyria nor anything about any other cultures' thinking in economic matters. Therefore the article clearly is POV, that is, biased towards western thinking. Popperipopp (talk) 23:02, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

I removed some stuff that was put in before because it overemphasised some scholars, just talking about them generally but saying little about what they've done. It's not true there's nothing in the article; there's lots of links to authors in seealso headers. I'm concerned that it's emphasising something for the sake of it. This article is clearly not POV on this basis at all. I fail to see what constructive suggestions you have. Also keep in mind that the islamic stuff is distinctly mediaeval, and on that basis alone is marginal. I did however suggest before, perhaps the section on Duns Scotus could be generalised to concern mediaeval scholarship. Wikidea 23:56, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Why does the fact that the "islamic stuff" is medieval make it marginal? There's no suggestion in the title that the article is limited to modern thinking. And even if that would be so, islamic thoughts on economy still plays a crucial part in many modern states. Our corresponding Swedish article include sections about Assyria, ancient Greece, the Bible and the scholastics, and islamic thoughts. The constructiveness in this perhaps lays in that I'm willing to write som of the topics mentioned, granted we can agree that it's relevant. Popperipopp (talk) 10:26, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
Well, I think that mediaeval thought is marginal because if one wants to understand economics today, there are some periods that have contributed more, and some less, to modern thinking. I'm not saying at all it's unimportant, which would of course be completely wrong. I'm afraid I don't speak Swedish, but I'd suggest that giving twice as much weight to what Mohammed said in 700 AD to an explanation of Keynsianism is unbalanced, if not plain silly. The fact that it doesn't seem to mention even Ibn Khaldun would also seem odd. May I refer you to the main page, under that section: Ancient economic thought, where there is much room for expansion: for instance this Assyrian things (which I don't understand from the Swedish page I'm afraid!) doesn't appear at all there. I'm just concerned about making a long page even longer. Some people are necessarily left out, and it'd be wrong to say that's being done out of a Eurocentric, Anglo American or pro-West POV. Wikidea 23:42, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Vote for this to be a good article!

...and help to get it finished! Wikidea 00:16, 1 June 2008 (UTC)