Talk:History of Indonesia

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NB: I restored the Noam Chomsky quotes re the events of 1965; Sukarno section.

These had been present for a year prior to their summary deletion.

Davenbelle 00:53, Dec 27, 2004 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Announcing Wikipedia:Indonesia-related topics notice board

After some thought and consideration, I created an Indonesia-related topics notice board, along the same lines as other regional notice boards (such as those for Malaysia and Africa). This was established to coordinate efforts to improve Indonesia-related Wikipedia entries. If you've made contributions to Indonesia-related articles in the past, or would like to, please take some time to visit, introduce yourself, and sign the roster. --Daniel June 30, 2005 18:36 (UTC)

[edit] Steps to Improve History of Indonesia and related pages

At present, I believe that there is a dire need to create a series of History of Indonesia pages. These would be based on time periods in Indonesian history (e.g. Pre-colonial, Colonial, Post-Independence, Confrontation, etc.). This would let the article History of Indonesia be closer to a general summary-style page, and allow those who wish for greater depth to examine the articles on historical eras. That is, those who wish to examine Indonesia under Sukarno could look at a Post-Independence Era page, without being burdened by having to navigate stuff on the Majapahit.

To start off, I've created a template, that can be examined at Template:History of Indonesia. This template, applied to Indonesian history pages, would allow easier navigation for readers, as well as a greater unity for pages on historical events.

I'm asking for anyone with a very good knowledge and who's interested to please contact me so that this is a group effort. In particular, my weakness (being in a country that tends to tell the buleh side of things) is in the pre-colonial history of the archipelago. Especially helpful would be translations from Indonesian Wikipedia articles.

I am posting this message on applicable Talk pages, but I ask for comments to be directed to Wikipedia_talk:Indonesia-related_topics_notice_board. --Daniel 20:46, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

I noticed that the precolonial writings, excluded Srivijaya, are mainly centered on Javanese kingdoms. What about other kingdoms like Riau and Aceh of Sumatra, Gowa and Bone of Sulawesi, kingdom of Maluku, Kingdoms at Kalimantan etc. 141.213.240.242 05:18, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Sure it is very java-centric, but even in Indonesian high school(I'm Indonesian student) precolonial history is only talk about kingdom in Java, Sumatra, and a little about Moluccas.Aditthegrat 08:56, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
Yes, most of Indonesian history centralized in Java, but we cannot disregard other kingdoms as well, like Kutai Kartanegara at Kalimantan. It's very important kingdom in Kalimantan histroy.141.213.240.242 19:44, 11 April 2006 (UTC)
I can't argue that we're somehow Java-centric. But we were also thought about other pre-colonialism kingdoms from other places. Nobody can deny Kutai as the first Hindu Kingdom in Indonesia, or the grand Buddhist Empire of Srivijaya, or the history of Ternate-Tidore in the famous Spice Islands.Matahari Pagi 04:13, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I suggest the writing of Sultanate of Aceh and Jambi articles. I hope that this article can be less Java-centric.Wai Hong 07:09, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I noticed that Indonesian version of Indonesian History has more articles and even lengthy. Since I am in no position to say anything about Indonesia, why don't the Indonesian wikipedians translate the articles to english. Another thing is that, it seems to me that this article is somewehat translated from a government books. If I am not mistaken, upon independence, there're several revolts through out Indonesia (excluding Java) like Kahar Muzakkar in Sulawesi and several others in Sumatra (Bukit Tinggi e.g.). Even in Indonesian version didn't state these.141.213.66.162 04:34, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
If you're thinking that the government is trying to hide those things from us, they're not. They might be a lot of things, but not in this case. It happens to be in schools all of us were taught about all those things that you mentioned. It just happened to be nobody seemed to be interested in writing it to Wikipedia. Matahari Pagi 04:13, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Annexation in east timor ?

East Timor join Indonesia after referendum and separate from Indonesia also with referendum, so I think there is no annexation or agressive attack from Indonesia to occupy east timor. _Annas_ 05:48, 11 October 2006 (UTC)

It certainly left by referendum - i understand there was no referendum or choice provided to join though. Where did you get that info from?? Furthermore, just because minimal resistance could be mounted, doesn't mean it wasn't an aggresive invasion. And it was certainly annexed - although in East Timor's case it was "aggresive" annexations aren't always so. --Merbabu 05:56, 11 October 2006 (UTC)


[edit] The "alledged" CIA involvement in the 1965 coup

Exerpts From:
The Indonesian Massacres and the CIA
 by Ralph McGehee
Covert Action Quarterly, Fall 1990


By 1967, Richard Nixon was describing Indonesia as
"the greatest prize in the Southeast Asian area."
 If Vietnam has been the major postwar defeat
for an expanding American empire, this turnabout
in nearby Indonesia is its greatest single victory.
-(from the article)



"The killings were part of a massive bloodletting after an abortive coup attempt taking, according to various estimates, between 250,000 and 1,000,000 lives and ultimately led to the overthrow of President Sukarno's government.

"Since then a debate has simmered over what happened. A recent study based on information from former Johnson administration officials, asserted that "for months the U.S. "did their damnedest" through public pressure and more discreet methods, to prod the Indonesian army to move against Sukarno without success."

- CIA operative R.McGehee Ralph McGehee worked for the CIA from 1952 until 1977 and now writes about intelligence matters, notably the book Deadly Deceits -- My 25 years in the CIA (New York: Sheridan Square Press, 1983). He has compiled a computer data base on CIA activities. Persons interested may write to him at: 422 Arkansas Ave., Herndon, VA 22070.
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/CIA/McGehee_CIA_Indo.html

Released documents from CIA's own current pages:

https://www.odci.gov/csi/kent_csi/docs/v14i2a02p_0002.htm


[edit] On recent edit

edited this out temporarily:

"At the same time, there are doubts about the CIA involvement with the fall of communist in Indonesia."

- doubts? official US historical records, washington post, CIA themselves, several CIA agents including the CIA head of south-east asian operations have documented this in abundance. see recent discussions and prviously provided external links in discussion pages on history and overtrow of sukarno.

Firstly, Sukarno and his movement was and has always been considered as the "non-aligned movement" and foremost Nationalist, not "communist".

"Sukarno became a leader of a pro-independence party, Partai Nasional Indonesia when it was founded in 1927. He opposed imperialism and capitalism because he thought both systems worsened the life of Indonesian people" (from the wiki article on Sukarno ).

Its difficult to get anywhere serious if one discredits what has become the new, recent, and current, mainstream version of events by calling it "POV". We are not talking about Gossip magazines here. The sources provided are from the BBC, The ITV, The National Security Archive, The Washington Post, The Guardian and are all very reputable and respected sources. (somewhat paraphrasing earlier similar comments by other users, but hopefully gets the point out).


" In his journal to America, Gie was surprised being accused as being manipulated by CIA to thrown his own anti-colonialism President Sukarno. As what he wrote in his diary and his article of student movement against Sukarno, his hatred to Sukarno and Indonesia Communist Party was purely caused by their ignorant '(ignorance?)'of people and their exploitation of the mass and he has had the opinion far before September 30th 1965. "
- communist party ignorant '(ignorance?)' of the people?
- communist party's "exploitation of the mass" ?
POV. source? a single intellectuals view?


There is of course an abundance of POV in mainstream media too, so let us _all_ _try_ to weed out the worst disinformation. sincerely John Smith (nom de guerre) 17:57, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

That a supposedly encylopedic article on the history of Indonesia would gloss over the involvement of US/UK business and military leaders in the rise of one of the most vicious mass-killers in human history is ... pathetic.Trachys (talk) 16:26, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Macau vs Macao

Guys, give it a break. __earth (Talk) 06:30, 20 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] The Portuguese

Dear beloved Admins,

There is a missing history link in the Portuguese section. Portuguese did not explore directly to Maluku islands but tried firstly to explore Java island. To fill in this gap, I tried to add very important milestone of the Portuguese exploration in Java island. This history has been taught in Junior High School history curriculum in Indonesia. The milestone is as follow:

Portuguese started to get access to profiting spices trade by trying to form a coalition with Sunda Kingdom by accepting a crown prince of the kingdom invitation to make peace and trade treaty in 1512. In 1522 Portuguese tried to realize the treaty by firstly coming to Sunda Kalapa, the Sunda Kingdom’s port to sign a cooperation and erected a padrao there. [18] [19] Portuguese failed to realize this trade cooperation in the next years because 1452 troops from Cirebon – Demak alliance had forcefully conquered Sunda Kalapa in 1527. Portuguese went to the east, to Maluku, to have new access to pepper trade.

Regards, --Hadiyana (talk) 13:47, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Your recent additions are clearer in establishing the significance of the events within the larger story. I have, however, summarised it to just the main essence for the overall flow of the article. We just don’t need to go into detail about treaties, dates, places, and people on this *summary* page – such detail belongs in a more detailed page such as Sunda Kingdom. Notice how the rest of the Portuguese section is very *broad* and not specific - please try to maintain this.
If you are still not convinced, I have spent some time shortening all the small details in this whole article and will continue to do so. We want a story about not just the main events, but most importantly how these events shaped Indonesia and its people – it’s not just a list of places, dates, and people. Such detail can go on Timeline of Indonesian History. kind regards --Merbabu (talk) 22:23, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Ok. Thank you for your kind cooperation. I just want to replace the words "indigenous kingdoms in java" with the words "Islam forces in Java" or "other kingdoms in Java" because the use of the word "indigenous" will give an impressin that Sunda kingdom was not an indigenous kingdom on Java island. Regards, --Hadiyana (talk) 01:11, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
OK - point taken. I used the word indigenous to clarify that it wasn't people from outside Java (Europeans, Aceh, etc) but Javan kingdoms. How about "other indigenous Javan kingdoms"? (PS, "Javan" is an interesting but rarely used Enlgish word. Different from "Javanese", it means from the island of Java and thus includes both Sundanese and Javanese. I don't think there is an exact Indonesian equivalent, right?) --Merbabu (talk) 01:42, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
"other indigenous Javan kingdoms" is ok. Thank you, --Hadiyana (talk) 06:09, 12 February 2008 (UTC)